John Kettler

Aragorn2002,

Appreciate your kind response. We're good. There's so much going on, so much at stake, so many interests, some competing, some complementary, that it's frighteningly easy to get swept up. On my end, because of my TBI and Aspbergers, which was exacerbated by the TBI, at times I find it so overwhelming I have to break off. Was similarly fried by CNN's 24/7 Desert Storm coverage, but I didn't have to process it with a TBI thrown in, either. Also, there's a $40 word attached to people with Aspbergers. It's perseveration and basically refers to getting rolling on a topic and just keeping on going, whether in conversation or, in my case, posting! The more stress I'm under and the less sleep I've had, the more I tend to perseverate.

Thus, I find myself in a multi-dimensional tightrope walking exercise in which I seek to take in rapidly breaking intel items, assess them as best I can, when I can and comment on them where possible, while also staying current with the by now hundreds of other posts, which must also be screened for useful info, whether other nuggets from current or near current other SM posts, say, or things like the article on Russian logistics. And as long ago (late June of 1989 when I left) as my Soviet Threat Analyst days were, much of what I knew then still applies now, allowing me to provide perspectives on things when theoretically my knowledge base is largely obsolete. But how obsolete is it when T-64s, T-72s and T-80s, however upgraded, are still the standard tanks, when the MI-24, MI-29 and Ka-50 series (the last already in flight test when I left) roam the skies and dispense death, along with the Su-25? Much the same situation obtains ref artillery, with the 2S1, 2S3, 2S7, BM-21, BM-27, etc. still in service. And today's much higher tech and far smaller manpower Red Army is the result of massive reforms initiated by Marshal Ogarkov while I was still in military aerospace. Likewise, what the Soviets used to call reconnaissance-strike complexes are now fully operational, as evidenced by bad things resulting from UA soldiers using their cell phones! Despite all its high tech, today's Red Army is still heavily driven by concepts and principles antedating the GPW in some cases, but now the means finally exist to execute at least some of them. But as we all know, today's modern battlefield is both vastly more complex and vastly more dangerous, often with no safe rear, either. 

And have to do all of the above while not going off the rails, somehow getting sleep and not getting so caught up in things I post or say something inappropriate. And all of the above while juggling my endless fascination with weapons and warfare against the all too real havoc and destruction and the knowledge that we CMers have our own people in, or potentially in, the combat zone. This is altogether together too close to having brother George in his M3 CFV right across the border from East Germany and a SECRET level Army study in my safe showing a 50% casualty rate for units like his fighting the Covering Force Battle--and then war breaks out.

Finally, this is ever in my mind. Has been n since I first read it and was poleaxed by it.

https://warprayer.org

Regards,

John Kettler

Aragorn2002,

Appreciate your kind response. We're good. There's so much going on, so much at stake, so many interests, some competing, some complementary, that it's frighteningly easy to get swept up. On my end, because of my TBI and Aspbergers, which was exacerbated by the TBI, at times I find it so overwhelming I have to break off. Was similarly fried by CNN's 24/7 Desert Storm coverage, but I didn't have to process it with a TBI thrown in, either. Also, there's a $40 word attached to people with Aspbergers. It's perseveration and basically refers to getting rolling on a topic and just keeping on going, whether in conversation or, in my case, posting! The more stress I'm under and the less sleep I've had, the more I tend to perseverate.

Thus, I find myself in a multi-dimensional tightrope walking exercise in which I seek to take in rapidly breaking intel items, assess them as best I can, when I can and comment on them where possible, while also staying current with the by now hundreds of other posts, which must also be screened for useful info, whether other nuggets from current or near current other SM posts, say, or things like the article on Russian logistics. And as long ago (late June of 1989 when I left) as my Soviet Threat Analyst days were, much of what I knew then still applies now, allowing me to provide perspectives on things when theoretically my knowledge base is largely obsolete. But how obsolete is it when T-64s, T-72s and T-80s, however upgraded, are still the standard tanks, when the MI-24, MI-29 and Ka-50 series (the last already in flight test when I left) roam the skies and dispense death, along with the Su-25? Much the same situation obtains ref artillery, with the 2S1, 2S3, 2S7, BM-21, BM-27, etc. still in service. And today's much higher tech and far smaller manpower Red Army is the result of massive reforms initiated by Marshal Ogarkov while I was still in military aerospace. Likewise, what the Soviets used to call reconnaissance-strike complexes are now fully operational, as evidenced by bad things resulting from UA soldiers using their cell phones! Despite all its high tech, today's Red Army is still heavily driven by concepts and principles antedating the GPW in some cases, but now the means finally exist to execute at least some of them. But as we all know, today's modern battlefield is both vastly more complex and vastly more dangerous, often with no safe rear, either. 

And have to do all of the above while not going off the rails, somehow getting sleep and not getting so caught up in things I post or say something inappropriate. And all of the above while juggling my endless fascination with weapons and warfare against the all too real havoc and destruction and the knowledge that we CMers have our own people in, or potentially in, the combat zone. This is altogether together too close to having brother George in his M3 CFV right across the border from East Germany and a SECRET level Army study in my safe showing a 50% casualty rate for units like his fighting the Covering Force Battle--and then war breaks out.

Finally, this is ever in my mind. Has been n since I first read it and was poleaxed by it.

https://warprayer.org

Regards,

John Kettler

Ref the potential long term Ukrainian guerrilla resistance, it's noteworthy and directly pertinent that, in the face of an enormous effort to suppress and destroy them, anti-Communist Ukrainian partisans fought until 1959 before the last resistance ended. Yes, you read that correctly. Don't know how many there were when the GPW ended, but can say with confidence they had lots of arms and munitions, as well as lots of combat experience. Would further note that they lasted until 1959 despite the Soviets having penetrated the very intel organizations providing clandestine support and sending in agents and operatives. This was because of MI6 traitor KIm Philby (who very nearly became the head of MI6), who was read in on both MI6 and CIA ops supporting the Ukrainian partisans--and thwarted those ops with great ingenuity and ruthlessness.

While the Ukrainian populace doesn't have the same advantages the anti-Communist partisans had then in several key areas, the UA does, can teach the requisite skills, doubtless has stockpiles of weapons and munitions, even if old, and will have the kind of western support the muj in Afghanistan couldn't begin to dream of when the CIA and others began to clandestinely supply arms. Modern weapons, especially man-portable standoff weapons, make it possible to do what was flatly impossible for the partisans and make security the stuff of nightmares for the Russians--by stupendously increasing the area and volume of what must be protected. Instead, for example, of having sentries stationed along the rail line, it's now necessary to, in the NLAW case, secure over a 1 km wide swaths on both sides of the tracks.  If it's a Javelin, then it's over 5 kms on both sides of the tracks. Since it's already been noted that Russia can't possibly put enough troops in to properly secure Ukraine under vastly worse conditions than obtained in Iraq, nightmares would be good things by comparison. Modern explosives are far more powerful than older ones, and there are many more capabilities available via modern munitions, too. All it takes to stop a train dead is one ATGM, so no need to run the great risks of mining the tracks. Were some friendly power to supply, say, laser-guided projectiles for 120 mm mortars, 122 mm tube artillery or even Grad or similar, then the problems would escalate at least an order of magnitude (likely several) for the occupier. Would note the VC caused devastating damage with single Grad rockets launched from the simplest of launchers. And laser designators these days can be easily transported and hidden.  And these are but a few of a multitude of possibilities.



Regards,

John Kettler

Aragorn2002,

Am well aware this isn't my thread. As has been many times stated, though, this is intended to be a thread focused on the invasion of Ukraine. Yet there has been a ton of discussion of many topics not directly pertinent to the purpose of the thread. BFCElvis has several times issued reminders on this score, and I got dinged on this Forum myself for being OT while making an argument against a position taken by another member ref leadership. Given the stated  purpose of the thread, I find the discussions of China invading Taiwan, what India might do, China's position in this mess during and afterwards, not to mention the post-invasion world order, fascinating as they are, to be way beyond the scope of this post's stated purpose. My views, and YMMV.

Regards,

John Kettler

Aragorn2002,

Am well aware this isn't my thread. As has been many times stated, though, this is intended to be a thread focused on the invasion of Ukraine. Yet there has been a ton of discussion of many topics not directly pertinent to the purpose of the thread. BFCElvis has several times issued reminders on this score, and I got dinged on this Forum myself for being OT while making an argument against a position taken by another member ref leadership. Given the stated  purpose of the thread, I find the discussions of China invading Taiwan, what India might do, China's position in this mess during and afterwards, not to mention the post-invasion world order, fascinating as they are, to be way beyond the scope of this post's stated purpose. My views, and YMMV.

Regards,

John Kettler

BletchleyGeek,

That was a most valuable and insightful article on Russian logistics. Never saw anything like it during my 11+ years as a Soviet Threat Analyst. Back then, we were trying desperately to find ways to kill--quickly and in great numbers--Soviet and Warsaw Pact tanks, though I'm sure the US Air Force would've been hitting such key targets as critical bridges. Back then, we also has no counter to the foe's HAS's, yet our HAS's (TAB-V) were killable by it. They also had highly capable runway killing BETAB dibber bombs and a robust modular rapid runway repair setup. Worked on the B-1B CCWG (Conventional Capabilities Working Group) at Rockwell, and we were investigating things like attacks on the railroad gauge switchover points, certain bridges, and I made the discovery that the railroad network for one WP country was basically functionally the same as the electrified rail or overhead wire systems in the US. Knock out the power to the rails, and no more trains move! In turn, this led to targeting the power plants and related facilities providing the juice to run the railroads.

Haiduk,

Delighted to hear from you, and may you and yours be safe. With good targeting data, am sure the Red Army isn't enjoying the Pion concert.

Other CMers in Ukraine, please check in. Not exactly sure of your Forum names, other than BigDuke6, from whom I haven't seen a post since at least last year. 

Russian CMers,

On a related note, ISTR at least one of our Russian colleagues is in the Red Army. Believe it's Kalugin. Wonder where he is and how he's doing?

All,

Was today news deficient ref combat reporting, because it seems to me most of the posts made after I put up the military-specific Euromaid Press posts, then went to bed for ~8 hours, largely do not focus on combat?

Regards,

John Kettler

This is the perfect reading for both sides in CMBS. It was the standard source on the topic, and I had a copy at my desk during my time as a Soviet Threat Analyst. https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015005491827&view=2up&seq=2&skin=2021

Regards,

John Kettler
 

This invasion, or whatever styling people may wish to use instead, came as a shock to someone used to seeing a more or less constant array of alarmist false Ukraine invasion stories online and even more outrageous videos, one of which claimed a NATO destroyer had been sunk by a RBS-56 cruise missile. The problem? The RSM-56 BULAVA is tha-state-of-the-art MIRVed SLBM on the also latest BOREI-class SSBN!

Truly did not expect Russia would invade, but would note that the correlation of forces was deteriorating over time against Russia, as clearly evidenced by the massive influx (2000+) of ATGMs from no fewer than three countries (US (Javelin), UK (NLAW, LI (Javelin)). Would further note that using protracted combat exercises to wear down the prospective foe, then standing down (to reduce enemy vigilance) before conducting a surprise attack was and is a standard tactic from both the Soviet and Russian playbooks.

My heart goes out to Ukraine and her people, but it is also my fervent wish that none of our CM flock and dear ones in the current or possibly expanded combat zone to come is harmed, or worse, killed. Before it's all said and done, this will be a tragedy on a host of fronts. The only questions are how severely, in how many ways, for how long and at what costs in limbs, life, infrastructure, homes and more?

Regards,

John Kettler

 

Euromaidan Press   @EuromaidanPress · 35m   "In a few days of intervention in Ukraine, as many Russian servicemen will be killed as in two Chechen wars. Thousands. Thousands" – Minister of Defense of Ukraine Reznikov has just addressed Russians, "especially the wives, mothers, girlfriends of Russian soldiers and officers". Euromaidan Press   @EuromaidanPress · 58m   22:00 EET The situation now is threatening for Kyiv - without exaggeration. The next night, especially in the morning, will be very difficult. Russian troops are close to the capital. The military and law enforcement are neutralizing sabotage groups in the city, - Kyiv mayor           Euromaidan Press   @EuromaidanPress · 56m   To defend the capital from the advancing aggressor, the 112th Territorial Defense Brigade of Kyiv is already complete on 100% by volunteers. Now we are deciding on the creation of additional units of defenders of Kyiv - the mayor Vitaliy Klychko. Euromaidan Press   @EuromaidanPress · 55m   In the capital, bridges have been taken under protection and special control of the Armed Forces of Ukraine. They are also setting checkpoints not only at the main entrances to the city, but also block traffic near strategic facilities in the capital, - Kyiv mayor Euromaidan Press   @EuromaidanPress · 3h   "At the moment, the fiercest fighting is in the Kharkiv direction, Sumy Oblast and in the south of Ukraine." – Mychaylo Podoliak, Presidential Office, 18:50 EET.   Euromaidan Press   @EuromaidanPress · 2h   20:00 EET Fake information massively spread in Sumy region. Information that cities"surrendered" and the authorities fled - fake. Sumy and other district centers of the region are under our control - Head of Oblast Administration Fighting in the region continues - Military   Euromaidan Press   @EuromaidanPress · 1h   20:00 EET Further information from Sumy region head. Situation in the city is calm, territorial defense undergoes its formation and deployment, large groups of Russian vehicles are moving towards Kyiv, a large group of tanks is reported. Connection with local districts is stable   Euromaidan Press@EuromaidanPress·1h🇵🇱🇺🇦The convoy with the ammunition from Poland has entered Ukraine.

Euromaidan Press   @EuromaidanPress · 3h   16:00 EET Russian reconnaissance and sabotage groups operate insidiously, disguising themselves in civilian clothes and infiltrating Ukrainian cities in order to destabilize the situation by carrying out sabotage operations - General Staff Euromaidan Press   @EuromaidanPress · 4h   Suspilne reports that after heavy battles Ukrainian forces lost bridge to Kherson. We can't verify this because the official web-source is down.

https://t.co/6dlQj1N6NW
  Euromaidan Press Retweeted             Stratcom Centre UA   @StratcomCentre · 2h   The Russian occupiers are shelling in Kharkiv where over a million civilians live. The Armed Forces of Ukraine are actively resisting and defending our city. We believe in our Ukrainian army! #RussiaInvadedUkraine #StandWithUkraine #StopWar

Euromaidan Press@EuromaidanPress·4h🇱🇹🇺🇦   Lithuania will help Ukraine by providing additional armoured vests, helmets, automatic rifles and ammunition. I would note Germany is sending 5000 helmets, with delivery at Polish-Ukrainian border. This is from another Euromaidan Press post, but by then, I'd run out of steam.
      Euromaidan Press   @EuromaidanPress Consequences of the Russian artillery attack on the North-Luhansk town of Starobilsk (Copy link  function didn't work again, its default setting!). It's easily found by scrolling until you find a devastated town, part of which is burning and most of which is heavily damaged or destroyed. Currently, it's at the 5 hours ago location in the thread, right above the pics of the bunkering ship hit.     Euromaidan Press   @EuromaidanPress ·   This is the most recent directly military stuff on this site, but there is much, too, on sanctions, alliances, expressions of determination (including Zelensky's being in Kviv and declaring he's staying with the people, solidarity with Ukraine, blistering of Putin, even the authorization of the issuance of military bonds, what we in the US called war bonds. It's unclear to me whether the statement about Russian sabotage groups is based on attacks made and more to be prevented or simply an understanding of how Russian diversionary troops operate.   Regards,

John Kettler

Ref the Strela-10 ramming the Ukrainian car, per the comments to the tweet, the driver, a senior, survived.

On a separate note, Euromaidan Press @EuromaidanPress has provided the information on blown bridge  and the hero who died doing it.
"To stop the advance of the tank column, the decision was to blow up the Henichesk bridge. The engineer Skakun Vitaliy volunteered to perform this task. He mined the brdige but couldn't leave and blew it up together with himself." The unit successfully redeployed - Land Forces    

Regards,

John Kettler

Ref the Strela-10 ramming the Ukrainian car, per the comments to the tweet, the driver, a senior, survived.

On a separate note, Euromaidan Press @EuromaidanPress has provided the information on blown bridge  and the hero who died doing it.
"To stop the advance of the tank column, the decision was to blow up the Henichesk bridge. The engineer Skakun Vitaliy volunteered to perform this task. He mined the brdige but couldn't leave and blew it up together with himself." The unit successfully redeployed - Land Forces    

Regards,

John Kettler

archangelsk2021,

Those are excellent points you made, starting with the notion the two named divisions may, in fact, be properly trained combat units. I do know that at least elements of Kantemirovka have done live fire training on the Poligon at Alabino, near Moscow. Find your economic counterpoint intriguing. Your further comments on we don't know enough about the forces involved and their combat effectiveness to draw any informed conclusion.

Regards,

John Kettler

db_zero,

TOS-1 Buratino 220 mm MRL firing unguided rockets with thermobaric aka FAE (FuelAir Explosive) warheads. This system is on a T-72 tank chassis. In the video you can see the MRL, its reload vehicle, the MRLs dug in, rockets firing and rockets exploding. The blast and overpressure are the equivalent force of small nukes, but without the radiation hazards.

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/reboot/russias-tos-1-buratino-rocket-launcher-lays-waste-enemies-196332
Regards,

John Kettler

Holien,

When analyzing the Correlation of Forces, at a strategic level anyway, it isn't merely a force comparison. It includes such things as will to fight by the attacked and any potential supporters--at both a leadership and societal level. Weak, compromised or both opposition leaders, especially at the super power level, are a huge help to a nation planning to invade another.  Ref the US, consider the difference between JFK and JB--night and day to put it mildly, so for purposes of the discussion, you don't need to invoke Alt Right in order to contest the point. If you don't like that one, how about Chamberlan and Churchill in terms of their strength as leaders. Can you imagine how WW II would've gone for the British with Chamberlain as the wartime PM. 

danfrodo,

Putin doesn't have to invade in order to trigger Article 5, all he to do is attack a member nation, in any number of ways, including, these days, cyber attack and terrorism.

Regards,

John Kettler

This invasion, or whatever styling people may wish to use instead, came as a shock to someone used to seeing a more or less constant array of alarmist false Ukraine invasion stories online and even more outrageous videos, one of which claimed a NATO destroyer had been sunk by a RBS-56 cruise missile. The problem? The RSM-56 BULAVA is tha-state-of-the-art MIRVed SLBM on the also latest BOREI-class SSBN!

Truly did not expect Russia would invade, but would note that the correlation of forces was deteriorating over time against Russia, as clearly evidenced by the massive influx (2000+) of ATGMs from no fewer than three countries (US (Javelin), UK (NLAW, LI (Javelin)). Would further note that using protracted combat exercises to wear down the prospective foe, then standing down (to reduce enemy vigilance) before conducting a surprise attack was and is a standard tactic from both the Soviet and Russian playbooks.

My heart goes out to Ukraine and her people, but it is also my fervent wish that none of our CM flock and dear ones in the current or possibly expanded combat zone to come is harmed, or worse, killed. Before it's all said and done, this will be a tragedy on a host of fronts. The only questions are how severely, in how many ways, for how long and at what costs in limbs, life, infrastructure, homes and more?

Regards,

John Kettler

 

Ref OSINTtechnical posted trucker video of destroyed armor column, confirm 4 x BMP-2 destroyed. Positive ID.

On a separate note, IF we trust the claimed geolocation, the Russians had, as of the time of the reporter's post, AFVs 130 kms inside Ukraine.

https://twitter.com/JulianRoepcke/status/1496794231763255297/photo/1

Video shot near the same road sign unambiguously reveals the passage of positively IDed Russian AFVs: BTR-80 and Typhoon MRAP, as well as some  twin cab military pickup truck if that's the right term, and a possible command vehicle (box body van) in white, preceded by a white minivan with darkly tinted glass throughout. For sure, this column is Russian. Of note is that the large AFVs sport what has to be the the ID marking for this operation, a large white Z. You can see this same marking in the still of a T-72B-3 with overhead slat armor, which has it on the turret side and upper glacis plate. By contrast, other imagery from below source COUPSURE, shows claimed Russian AFVs entering Ukraine from Belarus instead have a white circle outline. Hope I said that right. Since I know of no case in which the Soviets or Russians have ever used two ID markings in the same op, seems to me that this could well be a distinctly Belarusian ID marking. That said, this is an argument by analogy, since I have precisely zero knowledge of Belarusian Army operational identification marking practices.
 
https://twitter.com/pmakela1/status/1496781698280865794/photo/1

Regards,

John Kettler

That this is a road march is immediately apparent from the fact the tanks are not only unbuttoned but have crew exposed. Standard practice was in the GPW and remains to this day, buttoning the tanks when in the assault. If you doubt this, just go look at all the video of the Tank Biathlon, Army Day, winter combat exercises and more. When the tanks are attacking, they're buttoned up. Tanks conducting recon will be unbuttoned. Would also note the acute lack of separation between the tanks in march column, which is typically 25-50 meters. This tells me they're sacrificing vulnerability if attacked in order to get more tanks forward as fast as possible.

Regards,

John Kettler

That this is a road march is immediately apparent from the fact the tanks are not only unbuttoned but have crew exposed. Standard practice was in the GPW and remains to this day, buttoning the tanks when in the assault. If you doubt this, just go look at all the video of the Tank Biathlon, Army Day, winter combat exercises and more. When the tanks are attacking, they're buttoned up. Tanks conducting recon will be unbuttoned. Would also note the acute lack of separation between the tanks in march column, which is typically 25-50 meters. This tells me they're sacrificing vulnerability if attacked in order to get more tanks forward as fast as possible.

Regards,

John Kettler

All,

Here's a great video which combines existing footage of the Luchs with stills the creator of this vid included from his time as commander of one. Am still looking for a video I've seen of one camouflaged in a dung heap with only the turret exposed. Practically invisible!
 


QuiGon,

Had no idea this AFV had a deep recon role, but can well believe it could do that and do it well. 

Regards,

John Kettler

Splinty,

Correct. Was with the 2/11 ACR based at Bad Kissingen, FRG. His unit, G Troop, was deployed close enough to the IGB he sent me drawings of the guard towers and the guard dogs. If you have FB, he posts as George Kettler. Am sure he'd be pleased to hear from you. If you don't have FB, I'll send him the link to this thread.

All,

Per my brother in his FB reply to a question about what model Bradley M3 CFV, he told the questioner it was the Gen 1 version first deployed, not the M3A1. As such that makes the pic directly pertinent to CMCW, since it's what's in the game.

Regards,

John Kettler

This picture of brother George Kettler just surfaced and was sent to him by his then Bradley M3 CFV commander, Dana Milner, and posted by George to FB so I could share it here. Though the picture dates well past (04/88) the CBCW timeframe (1978-82), it nevertheless is apt. At the time, he was gunner on the platoon leader's track, and the unit is en route to the gunnery range. George started out on the Bradley as a driver, then became, successively, gunner, track commander and platoon sergeant. In the pic, he's a sergeant, a gunner, and is chest out behind the ISU (Integrated Sight Unit). 



Regards,

John Kettler

This picture of brother George Kettler just surfaced and was sent to him by his then Bradley M3 CFV commander, Dana Milner, and posted by George to FB so I could share it here. Though the picture dates well past (04/88) the CBCW timeframe (1978-82), it nevertheless is apt. At the time, he was gunner on the platoon leader's track, and the unit is en route to the gunnery range. George started out on the Bradley as a driver, then became, successively, gunner, track commander and platoon sergeant. In the pic, he's a sergeant, a gunner, and is chest out behind the ISU (Integrated Sight Unit). 



Regards,

John Kettler

This picture of brother George Kettler just surfaced and was sent to him by his then Bradley M3 CFV commander, Dana Milner, and posted by George to FB so I could share it here. Though the picture dates well past (04/88) the CBCW timeframe (1978-82), it nevertheless is apt. At the time, he was gunner on the platoon leader's track, and the unit is en route to the gunnery range. George started out on the Bradley as a driver, then became, successively, gunner, track commander and platoon sergeant. In the pic, he's a sergeant, a gunner, and is chest out behind the ISU (Integrated Sight Unit). 



Regards,

John Kettler

People jonesing for the Bundeswehr Leopards recognize they need recon in support, which is why they're going to want this, the antithesis of the Bradley M3 CFV. Brother George and fellow Scouts got to meet their Bundeswehr counterparts and offered a straight across swap, but were immediately refused. The Luchs is smaller, lower, practically silent, able to get into a fight and out of it with equal celerity (back-to-back drivers, just like the WW II German 8-Rad ACs), amphibious and is so lightly armed it would never be used as a tank, yet was perfectly able to deal with Soviet motorcycles and armored cars.
 
Regards,

John Kettler

People jonesing for the Bundeswehr Leopards recognize they need recon in support, which is why they're going to want this, the antithesis of the Bradley M3 CFV. Brother George and fellow Scouts got to meet their Bundeswehr counterparts and offered a straight across swap, but were immediately refused. The Luchs is smaller, lower, practically silent, able to get into a fight and out of it with equal celerity (back-to-back drivers, just like the WW II German 8-Rad ACs), amphibious and is so lightly armed it would never be used as a tank, yet was perfectly able to deal with Soviet motorcycles and armored cars.
 
Regards,

John Kettler