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powdermonkey

Over-Powered Artillery and general game lethality

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I think the game engine is geared more towards mobile, fluid tactical actions and far less to model combat across extensively fortified areas. When it comes to cover in buildings, they´re well suited to provide cover vs small arms, but when it comes to more or less heavy HE, every human person with sense of survival either would leave entirely, or seek the deepest of underground protection. We´ve no underground protection in the game and we neither have deep spider holes and slit trenches, or the sort with bits of overhead cover to protect from tree bursts and the like. Log bunkers is the best you can use in the game as substitute. Unless BFC is able to deal with the FOW issues when it comes to anything that is dug into the terrain mesh, only some further abtractions would be feasible. One example taken from CMBB would be sewer movement that takes units out of the 3D space entirely. IIRC BFC does not want to abstract things in those ways anymore and prefers to keep modeling everything in the given 3D space. So with regard to artillery/HE effectiveness in the game, I think it´s not really that far off. It´s just the means of real protection from it missing in the games.

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50 minutes ago, RockinHarry said:

I think the game engine is geared more towards mobile, fluid tactical actions and far less to model combat across extensively fortified areas. 

This, pretty much. The kind of situations you describe are indeed the sweet spot of CMx2.

As you and @DMS point out, one needs to shape the terrain mesh in order to obtain a more accurate and effective representation of fortifications. Your Enter Germany scenario did that quite well. It is though sometimes hard to create useful trenches or fixed heavy weapons firing positions because of the terrain grid resolution. A 6 meters wide "slit" trench is like 10 wider than it should be.

Still waiting for the patch to correct a few things, but maps have a lot to do in amplifying casualties. I find the CMFB maps to be kind of the peak of map making in CMx2 - dropping mortar shells in a flat as a parade ground piece of terrain is way more  effective than doing so on the Belgian countryside with its ditches, and general uneven, hilly terrain.

Edited by BletchleyGeek

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19 hours ago, Thewood1 said:

Are casualty rates tending to be lower in campaigns than scenarios?  I would think that would limit the tendencies to push units beyond more realistic limits.  

People generally approach campaigns differently to the way they approach scenarios so the tendency, particularly when you are unsure how replacements will work in a campaign, will generally make the player more cautious than they would in standalone scenario.

Edited by Combatintman

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I know that.  That's why I was asking if anyone actually sees that.  Was wondering if anyone has actually saw it.  I'm not talking about generic players.  I was hoping someone would comment that has actually played campaigns and scenarios with personal observations'.

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1 hour ago, Thewood1 said:

I know that.  That's why I was asking if anyone actually sees that.  Was wondering if anyone has actually saw it.  I'm not talking about generic players.  I was hoping someone would comment that has actually played campaigns and scenarios with personal observations'.

Yes, definitely. I'm more cautious and take more time than in a standalone scenario, which results in fewer casualties to the friendlies. I should do more of the same approach in scenarios, but, it's hard not to just push a little harder because you're *almost* there, and before you know it, you're not.

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Yes, definitely for me, too. But for truly conservative, cautious play, nothing beats a game against a real person, especially if it is part of a larger campaign like those run at The Few Good Men or similar CM-based groups.

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On 2/1/2019 at 12:22 AM, Thewood1 said:

Are casualty rates tending to be lower in campaigns than scenarios?  I would think that would limit the tendencies to push units beyond more realistic limits.  

I'm not seeing it. I try to limit casualties to the same extent both in scenarios and campaigns.

Currently I'm playing a campaign where I have some core units and also a VG Battalion. The VGs are not core units, so in theory I could throw them all away Lanzerath style. But I don't. I decided to call cease fire after capturing two of four objectives, yielding me a draw but letting me continue the campaign.

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10 minutes ago, Bulletpoint said:

I decided to call cease fire after capturing two of four objectives, yielding me a draw but letting me continue the campaign.

Calling a ceasefire earlier than the scenario time is as important or more important than playing carefully. Failing to stop the advance or withdrawing from defensive positions to fight another day a major reason casualties are so high in the game.

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4 minutes ago, IanL said:

Calling a ceasefire earlier than the scenario time is as important or more important than playing carefully. Failing to stop the advance or withdrawing from defensive positions to fight another day a major reason casualties are so high in the game.

Yes.

I will say though, that there is some truth to the argument that infantry casualties in city fights are higher than they should be due to the way infantry movement has to stick to 8x8m squares, trees blocking LOS very effectively, and the building targeting issues. So carefully infiltrating and probing forward and blasting enemy positions is more difficult than in real life. Also, losses due to teams choosing to enter/exit buildings from the wrong side.

(disclaimer: not saying city fights are easy in real life either)

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