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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Sequoia said:

Fulda Gap fans, what year would you suggest? The Cold War lasted a long time as I'm sure you know. :)

1985-1989. It would be easy to do, despite the seemingly large amount of time covered. The date range would allow for a few different TO&E's. For example, in 1985 the US was using mostly a mix of M1 Abrams and M60 Patton tanks, along with mostly M113's with a varying amount of M2 and M3 Bradleys. In 1989, you would have mostly M1A1's and M2/M3 Bradley's. For the Soviets, in 1985 you would have a lot of T-72 variants (B's mostly) and T-64's, and in 1989 you would get mostly T-80 variants (BV's and U's in the shock armies). Of course there would be similar differences between other NATO and Warsaw Pact nations. This is generalized of course (for example, there would be a decent amount of M1IP Abrams mixed into units in both 1985 and 1989) but it gives you an idea of why I would choose this date range. 

To be clear, I wouldn't argue for a war that would last 4 years from 1985 to 1989, but a range of scenario's happening in that timeframe. That would allow for a lot of flexibility and access to lots of fun toys from each side. 

Edited by IICptMillerII

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Posted (edited)
On 9.6.2018 at 4:39 AM, Mord said:

Well, it's damn near unanimous! If given the choice between Afrika Korps and Early War Europe,  Fulda Gap would win!

 

Mord.

Never for me. I have been stationed there, or close to it, when Fulda Gap was the name of focal point of a possible Third World War, not a War Game. No need (or better wish) to replay it...

Edited by StieliAlpha

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On 8.6.2018 at 11:05 PM, Mord said:

  Erwin got me thinking with this post:

So, instead of derailing the RT Bones thread with a question there, I figured I'd start a new conversation to pass some time.

If BF put a gun to our head and made us choose between Afrika Korps or Early War Europe, which would you choose? And why?

 

Mord.

And re the OP: Early war, of course. Poland  39 and France 40 are grossly under represented in tactical war games. Plus, look at all the “experimental” equipment, formations, tactics...

And: Though I own some, I never was really comfortable with any Afrika Korps game.

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Why's that? The North African campaign has the reputation of being one with few war crimes, especially when compared to the Ostfront.

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Posted (edited)
53 minutes ago, StieliAlpha said:

And: Though I own some, I never was really comfortable with any Afrika Korps game.

Right, that's it. I'm going to ask Steve to lock this thread. :D

Edited by Aragorn2002

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I would really like to see Early War, but Afrika Korps would bridge the gap fantastically as CMFI already contains a fair bit of the required kit, and when the Afrika Korps is done, the Early War stuff would be right there too. It seems like the best economy of effort, from an outside perspective.

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Am of the opinion the received wisdom here on Early War is entirely too limited in scope. "9 April" (early stages of attack on Denmark)certainly opened my eyes, as did "The Battle of Westerplatte" (opening attack on Holland and a truly epic stand by resourceful motivated troops using the full panoply of a proper defense. If you haven't seen them yet, those movies are musts. There is a concerted effort right now over on the CoC side of things to put out Danish Army troops, complete with the Landsverk AFV.  Contrary to what many believe, the Poles put up a very stiff fight, but were ultimately undone by two attacking forces (SU attacking their strategic rear when they were fully engaged vs Germans frontally). Polish air power was dispersed from major bases and used well both offensively and defensively. LW casualties were much higher than most realize and left LW in bad shape. The Dutch fought hard, too, with all sorts of diverse actions involved. There's also Belgium, which had AFVs, many indigenously produced. The Germans adopted some, too. This is by no means comprehensive, but I encourage Early War advocates to broaden their thinking when it comes to what the gaming experience could be like.
 

Regards,

John Kettler

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18 hours ago, James Crowley said:

I just like the fact that you can "measure", so to speak, historically based scenarios by reading up on them. Something you can't do with scenarios that never happened.

Precisely. +1.

Michael

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17 hours ago, Aragorn2002 said:

What about ww2 scenarios that never happened, but could have happened if a certain unit would have been at a certain place at a certain time? I did for example tremendously enjoy the CMBN campaign about a fictional Allied landing in the Pas de Calais area instead of Normandy. Or what would have happened if the LVI. Panzerkorps wouldn't have been transferred from Hrs. Gr. Mitte to Hrs. Gr. Nordukraine shortly before Bagration in the summer of 1944? Some interesting possibilities for several thrilling scenarios come to mind.

Personally I love that sort of fictional/historical scenarios.  Panzer Campaigns always use to add several of those to their games. By changing certain parameters anything (tactically speaking) can happen.

There is nothing wrong about enjoying "what if..." games and scenarios. But personally I prefer the ones that actually had some chance of coming about historically. The ones that have the Germans winning because they have nuclear powered flying saucers leave me cold, except to laugh at.

Michael

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8 minutes ago, Michael Emrys said:

There is nothing wrong about enjoying "what if..." games and scenarios. But personally I prefer the ones that actually had some chance of coming about historically. The ones that have the Germans winning because they have nuclear powered flying saucers leave me cold, except to laugh at.

Michael

I tend to agree. In fact, a cold war gone hot is the only what-if scenario that interests me for the basis of an entire game. My fanatical want for a CM: Fulda Gap aside, I think a CM: Yom Kippur War would be fantastic as well. After all, it was the first real example of how a modern mechanized war would look like, and formed the basis for many military doctrines, some of which are still used today. 

Whoops, sorry @Mord, looks like I've thrown another wrench in your thread!

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3 minutes ago, IICptMillerII said:

CM: Yom Kippur War would be fantastic as well. After all, it was the first real example of how a modern mechanized war would look like, and formed the basis for many military doctrines, some of which are still used today.

I'm with you all the way on that one, but it's a political hot potato that so far BFC has shunned.

Michael

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5 minutes ago, Michael Emrys said:

I'm with you all the way on that one, but it's a political hot potato that so far BFC has shunned.

Michael

That's completely understandable, and what I suspected. 

To play devils advocate really quick, you could make the argument that now that Black Sea is out and they survived the political fallout, that they could do the same for a Yom Kippur War game. Relations between Egypt and Israel are much better now than they were in 1973, though the same cannot be said for Israel and Syria. Still, in the context of the Yom Kippur War, it is certainly more cooled off than the much more contemporary conflict in Ukraine. 

Worst case scenario Yom Kippur is just too politically volatile to be worth the effort. If that's the case, all the more reason for CM: Fulda Gap instead!

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Would love early War in Europe or Africa. 

 

Certainly want to see invasion of Russia upto surrender at Stalingrad. Plus we could have WInter War aswell. 

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12 minutes ago, IICptMillerII said:

Still, in the context of the Yom Kippur War, it is certainly more cooled off than the much more contemporary conflict in Ukraine. 

I don't see Arab-Isreali conflict cooling off any time in the foreseeable future, relations with Egypt notwithstanding. If the Moslem Brotherhood ever gets complete control of the Egyptian government, that could heat up very quickly.

Michael

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44 minutes ago, Michael Emrys said:

The ones that have the Germans winning because they have nuclear powered flying saucers leave me cold, except to laugh at.

Michael

Yes, that's obvious.  Personally I don't even use the Jagdtiger. As you can see from the examples I gave those are not the sort of scenarios I had in mind.

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1 hour ago, IICptMillerII said:

Whoops, sorry @Mord, looks like I've thrown another wrench in your thread!

No problem. It's a natural progression. I was just laughing earlier at how quickly it happened. I've gone off topic a thousand times over the years. I am not gonna hold your feet to the fire for it!

 

Mord.

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Early War (Poland, France and Balkans campaigns). Mainly for the reason I find desert terrain & maps quite boring and giving too little variation.

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10 hours ago, Michael Emrys said:

There is nothing wrong about enjoying "what if..." games and scenarios. But personally I prefer the ones that actually had some chance of coming about historically. The ones that have the Germans winning because they have nuclear powered flying saucers leave me cold, except to laugh at.

Michael

Which is why, if we ever did get early war, I wouldn't want to see a Sealion module. 

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Posted (edited)
20 hours ago, Sequoia said:

Why's that? The North African campaign has the reputation of being one with few war crimes, especially when compared to the Ostfront.

I have a much simpler reason: I never really understood the nature of the Campaigns. This heading forward on narrow lines of support and the culmination on key points. I am probably more the “advance on a broad front and see what you can do” type. 😃

Edited by StieliAlpha

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12 minutes ago, StieliAlpha said:

I have a much simpler reason: I never really understood the nature of the Campaigns. This heading forward on narrow lines of support and the culmination on key points. I am probably more the “advance on a broad front and see what you can do” type. 😃

I forgot to mention: I never really understood the shoot-outs on the open plain, as we had them in CMAK.😎

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Posted (edited)
27 minutes ago, StieliAlpha said:

I have a much simpler reason: I never really understood the nature of the Campaigns. This heading forward on narrow lines of support and the culmination on key points. I am probably more the “advance on a broad front and see what you can do” type. 😃

Advancing on a broad front is a little difficult when you have the Mediterranean Sea to your right and an untraversable ocean of sand to your left (or vice versa if you're in the Axis).

Edited by BrotherSurplice

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6 minutes ago, BrotherSurplice said:

Advancing on a broad front is a little difficult when you have the Mediterranean Sea to your right and an untraversable ocean of sand to your left (or vice versa if you're in the Axis).

I know, I know...

Experienced that too often...

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CM Afrika Korps...  not even close.  Early war after that.  Loved 'TOBRUK' the AH board game way back when.  I have always had that WWII desert itch...  Just love that whole theatre (early to the end).

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