'Fallen Eagle" movie: Test Trailers

[Kevin2k]

5 hours ago, Sublime said:

However even at the time the recordings werent directly used. We may as well start arguing about whether ULTRA is just more Western propaganda that naturally evolved into HATO supertanks because... capitalist propaganda.

Personally I think the Swiss settled because they were guilty as sin. .

.....

Why do they do so for WW2? Cuz everyone knows that isnt BS.

 

Regarding the swiss issue, I won't go into details, or state an opinion, until I finish at least one book from the other side of the story  (between the Alps and a hard place).

As to WW2 politics in general, what should I reply? it seems to be a mess, unsurprisingly. For an example close to home, Start with Gen. Patton's last days. Or don't, which is a good choice too.

 

[Kevin2k]

1 hour ago, Kevin2k said:

 For an example close to home, Start with Gen. Patton's last days.

Hmm, seems like that part of history is also a mess on the web. So may not have been a good example.

[Sublime]

No actually thats a very interesting topic. There were reasons that his death perhaps may have been the best solution to a peace time nightmare as for as public statements about the Nazis and Soviets.

[Aragorn2002]

19 hours ago, Sublime said:

No actually thats a very interesting topic. There were reasons that his death perhaps may have been the best solution to a peace time nightmare as for as public statements about the Nazis and Soviets.

Despite his big mouth and contrary to Roosevelt and company, Patton had a conscience. That's what cost him his life. He was appalled by the treatment of the German population in occupied Germany. And rightly so.

[Anthony P.]

Oh, conspiracy theories! I knew something was missing.

[Sublime]

Ah  well..

Patton also put alot of ex Nazis in charge of his area of command. He also apparently had a lot of sympathies after the war towards German soldiers etc. And made a lot of comments that we fought the wrong people ( Germans instead of Russia ) then thing ( or we should fight the Reds now while the troops are here because its ineviteable ) Perhaps he was appalled at the German treatment, But then again I can guarantee it was several orders of magnitude better than being occupied by the Third Reich or being in the Eastern Zones.

Still dont think he was assasinated

 

P.s.

 So you believe a conspiracy theory that Patton was assasinated. Wirhout any real evidence. But you refuse to confirm or deny any German Wehrmacht atrocities on a large systemic scale? Er....  idk im done.  So we shouldnt believe anything about the Germans in Ww2 besides literal mountains of evidence from many nations because of some Brit propaganda during WW1 but you.ll take a conspiracy theory that has no solid evidence Ive EVER seen presented and accept that as the truth??

 

 

Btw really anyways If I was in charge of Patton Id be concerned about his sympathies towards the Germans too. The Germans starved and pillaged Europe so they could live better. They starved Holland as punishment and to help feed the Reich.

The Dutch were eating tulips until we were able to airdrop food after threatening the Germans controlling the area with war crimes reprisals if we werent allowed.

The Germans had slave laborers from all over Europe. They had slave laborers from all over Europe in factories but also parcelled them out to wealthy families etc to work on farms or whatever.

The long and the short of it is that Europe as a whole and much of the rest of the world had to put up with doing without ( rationing didnt end in Britain until 1953 iirc!!!) And losing millions of dead. All of it for Germanys benefit and when things went south because of aggressive German military action to keep it up. I find it hard to find much sympathy for the German nation at the time.  Adolf Hitler remains one of the most popular leaders of any nation any time anywhere ( odd enough Stalin too, the worlds 2 men respnsible for more deaths than any others ) and the German population didnt give a toss about Guernica, Rotterdamn, London or Conventry, to name a few. They get bombed and suddenly the Allies are air pirates.

The German populace was absolutely pro war and jubilant with each victory of wars without any reason except conquest at Germanys gain and the target's loss.

The Germans only rwally seem to have gotten anti war when they started losing. Ironically Ive also encountered this behavior in 

1. Convicts who find jesus in jail. Get out and go right back to crime.

2. Little kids who are penitent when caught and being punished. Suddenly theyre not sorry when theyre not in trouble anymore

Edited June 6, 2016 by Sublime

[AttorneyAtWar]

Denying Wehrmacht atrocities is bazarre, its not like it would exonerate them of anything, could I feel for the few soldiers who refused to comply and were convicted? Sure.

However they murdered millions and to deny that because of a minority is ridiculous, I thought we moved past the "Wehrmacht didn't kill people" phase.

[Wicky]

Even so cooler heads prevailed due to the unfeasability of the plans for Operation Unthinkable  "to impose upon Russia the will of the United States and the British Empire."

[Sublime]

I thiught so too. But read the posts. Its ridiculous.

Some are damned close to holocaust denial. And it was suggested that many massacres etc didnt happen because Brit propaganda in WW1 made stuff up. Which ironically the Germans did do in ww2.  

Killing contests? Check. Spearing babies on bayonets for fun? Check. Soap out of people? Check. Pillows with jewish womens hair? Check. Human lampshades? Check see Ilse Koch. She had human skin gloves and liked lampshades with tattooes. If you had tattooes you were screwed. Ilse also liked to ride around on  a horse with no panties and a short skirt. Then sit there on the edge of pits until some.poor bastard either looked up her skirt or looked up.then she.d gleefully accuse them.of such and usually have them beaten to death on the spot.

[Sublime]

@Wicky and thank god. Whether we woulda won or the Russians it wouldnt have been worth millions more dead for what at best would be a constant western drain on men and material for a dnieper or vistula maginot line or whatever because we werent gonna conquer russia and if the germans hitting the gates of moscow didnt start a coup against stalin i dont think anything would have. 

Even nukes. We didnt have a lot and it took years to get even several. The project was riddled with red spies so the reds probably would know we didnt have many a bombs and probably still would have gotten their own 49 or 50.

The way things happened is the best solution.

[Aragorn2002]

22 minutes ago, Sublime said:

Ah  well..

Patton also put alot of ex Nazis in charge of his area of command. He also apparently had a lot of sympathies after the war towards German soldiers etc. And made a lot of comments that we fought the wrong people ( Germans instead of Russia ) then thing ( or we should fight the Reds now while the troops are here because its ineviteable ) Perhaps he was appalled at the German treatment, But then again I can guarantee it was several orders of magnitude better than being occupied by the Third Reich or being in the Eastern Zones.

Still dont think he was assasinated

 

P.s.

 So you believe a conspiracy theory that Patton was assasinated. Wirhout any real evidence. But you refuse to confirm or deny any German Wehrmacht atrocities on a large systemic scale? Er....  idk im done.  So we shouldnt believe anything about the Germans in Ww2 besides literal mountains of evidence from many nations because of some Brit propaganda during WW1 but you.ll take a conspiracy theory that has no solid evidence Ive EVER seen presented and accept that as the truth??

Btw really anyways If I was in charge of Patton Id be concerned about his sympathies towards the Germans too. The Germans starved and pillaged Europe so they could live better. They starved Holland as punishment and to help feed the Reich.

The Dutch were eating tulips until we were able to airdrop food after threatening the Germans controlling the area with war crimes reprisals if we werent allowed.

The Germans had slave laborers from all over Europe. They had slave laborers from all over Europe in factories but also parcelled them out to wealthy families etc to work on farms or whatever.

The long and the short of it is that Europe as a whole and much of the rest of the world had to put up with doing without ( rationing didnt end in Britain until 1953 iirc!!!) And losing millions of dead. All of for Germanys benefit. I find it hard to find much sympathy for the German nation at the time.

Yes, you're done?  Even worse than that, you think that you know it all, but you do not posses more than some google skills, too much time to write nonsense and a big mouth. The Hunger winter in Holland for example was as much caused by the railroad strike, ordered by the dutch authorities in London and the fact that the coal mines in the South of the Netherlands were already liberated, so the transport to the rest of the Netherlands was cut off, as by the German countermeasures against the strike. Try to get it into your skulls that nobody is trying to deny German attrocities, just trying to get some balance.

And Sublime, why don't you try to read a book about what really happened in Eastern Prussia or Silesia after the war, or in the concentration camps in Poland and Eastern Germany, this time populated by German civilians, instead of your well read copy of 'Band of Brothers'?  You made it quite clear that you don't care one little bit, but even you should be able to see that such acts also can be called 'attrocities'.

No offence, boys.

 

[Aragorn2002]

And for the record: I do NOT deny that the Holocaust happened. I was of course expecting that argument to turn up sooner or later, but I fully acknowledge the suffering and mass murder of the Jewish people.

Now I'm done.

Edited June 6, 2016 by Aragorn2002

[Sublime]

1 hour ago, Aragorn2002 said:

Yes, you're done?  Even worse than that, you think that you know it all, but you do not posses more than some google skills, too much time to write nonsense and a big mouth. The Hunger winter in Holland for example was as much caused by the railroad strike, ordered by the dutch authorities in London and the fact that the coal mines in the South of the Netherlands were already liberated, so the transport to the rest of the Netherlands was cut off, as by the German countermeasures against the strike. Try to get it into your skulls that nobody is trying to deny German attrocities, just trying to get some balance.

And Sublime, why don't you try to read a book about what really happened in Eastern Prussia or Silesia after the war, or in the concentration camps in Poland and Eastern Germany, this time populated by German civilians, instead of your well read copy of 'Band of Brothers'?  You made it quite clear that you don't care one little bit, but even you should be able to see that such acts also can be called 'attrocities'.

No offence, boys.

 

Actually Ive read quite a bit about the Russian terror campaigns and ethnic cleansing in Eastern Europe and in German settled regions of the Caucuses. Or the ethnic cleansing of Konigsberg into Kaliningrad perhaps?  Or Danzig now Gdansk?  Not nice stuff. But the Germans were original and primary initiators of the only 2 world wars ever, and within a span of 30 years. Honestly theyre lucky some people didnt have their way and we turned Germany into a huge farm country.  This turned out 70 yrs in the future to be a good thing we didnt do. If Id lived at the time I dont know if I would have felt the same. Also most of the ethnic cleansing and atrocities perpetrated hy the RA in Prussia Silesia and Eastern Germany was despicable. I say most but whether done nicely or not Prussia as it was before had to go. It was the miitaristic symbol of Germany. It was the "home of the German officer corps" and for anyone to expect Prussia to remain German with its reputation after 2 world wars is naive. Thatd be like if we had one state in America that was responsble for producing people who continually manipulated the state into wars. Eventually the state would be depopulated, repopulated, something. Every action has a consequence.

Perhaps I have a big mouth but my big mouth hasnt denigrated into personal insults to you, unlike you whose personally insulted me. When did I ever claim I knew everything? Was this in the post where I said in the " in the end we.ll never know exactly for sure " or any of the plus 5 posts in the last week where I specifically said Im not an expert, wasnt there, and never was in the military. And saying no offense after insultng someone doesnt work.

Thats like me saying aragorn you.re a fu*king tool. No offense.

So you.re suggesting because the Dutch who were occupied by a country that illegally invaded them and deported and executed sizable numbers of their populace had a strike the Germans were ok the purposefully starve the populace? Does that mean if a woman wears a short skirt shes asking to be raped?  You.ll also note I said the Germans starved Holland  AS PUNISHMENT so what exactly makes you think I dont know about the strikes?

Oh and my well red copy of Band of Brothers? After ive made it clear ambrose was hero worshipping the US Army and blatantly lied in history books?

No man no. Im avtually extremely well read from russian german american and british historians. Dont try to pin false labels on me. You wanna start slinging bs i could just as easily tell you to go back to your Iranian propaganda denying the holocaust. But i wont BECAUSE YOU NEVER SAID ANYTHING LIKE THAT.

So lets review. You directly insulted me. Two you made statements about me that contradict posts ive made directly in numerous ways. In fact it seems you.re the one who knows it all since you seem to have me ALL FIGURED OUT. And you.re completely wrong.

I mentioned Ambroses lies whoch have been proven and hero worship of the US Army. Pointed out some situations we.ll never know the truth about. Saod i wasnt there am a civvy and other statements that contradict I know everything. Id say my comments on My Lai and also my comments also noting that the Western Powers committed a lot of atrocities as well contradict your claims that " i dont care ".  What I DONT care about is the "poor me" syndrome that Japan is the biggest espouser of but the Wehrmacht also tries to use sometines in regard to the holocaust. What I dont care about is what happened to SS troops. Ya maybe some were honorable. Oh well. As a whole they were one of the most evil organizations. Ever.

And thats the major diff between US and Western atrocities versus Axis and Soviet. Western atrocities ( except for Vietnam one could argue there was systematic use of atrocities there ) were by and large criminal offenses by individuals or small groups. Not system wide atrocities from top to bottom like the Wehrmacht or Japanese military.

 

For a person who wants to call me a know it all you certainly seem to act like you know everything about what I know. And you.re dead wrong. I was born in Europe. Ive read countless history books from all sides. I check whether sources are first hand second hand etc. In essence i was 4 credits short of a bachelors in history before somehing stopped.my ability to finish college. But i certainly know how to do historical research.

You.ve briught up the 'Malmedy Method' twice. Hey at least THERE WAS A MALMEDY METHOD. You know what the Wehrmacht would have dine in a similar situation? Probably executed any and all prisoners they got for the next few months and kill a few hundred civilians too. Or lets say they blamed the incident on civilians and it happened to the Wehrmacht. You would have several hundred dead civilians. No trial nothing. Theres proof of these orders in Russia. In the Balkans. IIRC France Belgium and Holland. Crete they definitely did this.

 

Finally where did I cite Band of Brothers? And in our discussions I actually never used google. Thats called an ASSUMPTION. You were wrong on that one as well. Second I dont see how anything I said was any more "nonsense" than what you.ve said. Back to BoB It wasnt even on my war film list. So either show me where i said it or you can admit you just made that up. Which as far as im concerned means you have little compunction in just lying instead of making a logical counter argument. So Im glad you.re done. I dont need to resort to callig you a flipperhead to feel better and once  one side just starts making stuff up and name calling any convo im interested in is gone. In real life its interesting because theres ways to... continue a disagreement. But online everyones a tough guy so i dont even stoop to it.

This really sucks because I actually used to like you. Like another thread with another forum member where basically EVERYONE told him he was wrong and he just wouldnt stop. I used to like him too.. oh well. Im better off. Im 31. I dont know how old you are but if you cant have a conversation about history before accussing people of things that are bald faced lies and name calling... well youre not worth debating and as far as im concerned youre not mature enough either.

Edited June 6, 2016 by Sublime

[Anthony P.]

2 hours ago, Sublime said:

Some are damned close to holocaust denial.

I personally consider a lot of the nonsense about the Waffen SS being an elite, apolitical fighting organisation totally unrelated to the Holocaust, the crap about only a small certain SS organisation being responsible for the Holocaust and not any other branch (not the Heer, not the Kriegsmarine, not the Luftwaffe, not the Waffen SS), the myth that the Wehrmacht fought a "clean war" to be essentially "clean Holocaust denial", as it's basically admitting the most infamous part of the Holocaust, but denying that the vast majority of people involved in it were affiliated, as well as spreading outright Nazi and HIAG propaganda about mainly the "super duper awesome totally not Holocausting" Waffen SS.

Basically as close as one can get to clean cut Holocaust denial without risking a jail sentence in some countries.

[Aragorn2002]

43 minutes ago, Sublime said:

Thats like me saying aragorn you.re a fu*king tool. No offense.

None taken. Had to look it up, didn't even know what it is. I lost my temper a bit and so did you. Let's be sensible and calm down. I will leave  this thread alone now.

[Aragorn2002]

6 minutes ago, Anthony P. said:

I personally consider a lot of the nonsense about the Waffen SS being an elite, apolitical fighting organisation totally unrelated to the Holocaust, the crap about only a small certain SS organisation being responsible for the Holocaust and not any other branch (not the Heer, not the Kriegsmarine, not the Luftwaffe, not the Waffen SS), the myth that the Wehrmacht fought a "clean war" to be essentially "clean Holocaust denial", as it's basically admitting the most infamous part of the Holocaust, but denying that the vast majority of people involved in it were affiliated, as well as spreading outright Nazi and HIAG propaganda about mainly the "super duper awesome totally not Holocausting" Waffen SS.

Basically as close as one can get to clean cut Holocaust denial without risking a jail sentence in some countries.

Yep, thank you for reminding me. That's the part that made me lose my temper.

Edited June 6, 2016 by Aragorn2002

[Sublime]

Ah but i saod damned close to holocaust denial. I never said you denied it. Just as I said read some.of the posts. I DIDNT say Aragorn2002 is denying the holocaust. 

Just like my ONLY mention of Ambrose was to denigrate his honor and word as a historian for making stuff up most notably an incident between US Army and a Royal Navy LSI operator on DDay in Citizen Soldiers and his rabid American fanboism which actually detracts from the honor of American soldiers because Ambrose makes the Germans seem like clueless dolts in half his books - not the formidable enemy they were.

Edited June 6, 2016 by Sublime

[Aragorn2002]

Sublime. Please accept my apologies. I let myself get a bit carried away.

[Michael Emrys]

7 hours ago, Aragorn2002 said:

Sublime. Please accept my apologies. I let myself get a bit carried away.

Which is why BFC usually shuts these kinds of discussions down as soon as they start. I guess that this time you guys didn't quite cross over whatever line in the sand that BFC has decreed. I trust that good sense has prevailed and all will behave like gentlemen in debating what is admittedly a hotly emotional topic. And I would say that it is entirely appropriate that profound emotions are stirred by events such as the Holocaust and in fact the whole war. But to try to arrive at facts, sometimes we need to take a step back from our emotions for a while. Just a step; no need to back off the canyon rim!

Michael

[Sublime]

Of course Aragorn and if I offended my apologies to you as well.

 

Hotly debated or not this is a good example of forumites being able to step back and slow down what was still a imo very good discussion. I frankly like historical debate.  Thats all.

 

Emrys.. lol frankly Im amazed the thread hadnt gotten closed an or threats made about being banished to the peng thread or something.

Edited June 7, 2016 by Sublime

[PanzerMike]

31 minutes ago, Sublime said:

Emrys.. lol frankly Im amazed the thread hadnt gotten closed an or threats made about being banished to the peng thread or something.

I actually like it in the Peng thread. Lots of great minds at work there. Really.

And yes, even Emrys has his moments there. Few and far between, but still.

Love you Emrys, you are my favorite oldtimer!

[Sublime]

Ha. I remember when the Peng thread was created.

still. Never been my thing.

[gnarly]

Sorry, what was the topic of this thread? 

[Crinius]

Regarding Mr. Ambrose I found the Customer Review from Mr. Forczyk quite revealing and I have to agree with him. I think he pretty much nails it.

https://www.amazon.com/product-reviews/0743429907/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_hist_1?k=Band+Of+Brothers&showViewpoints=1&filterByStar=one_star&pageNumber=1

 

Edited June 8, 2016 by Crinius

[John Kettler]

Crinius,

That's quite the read! I read the primary one and about half the feedback to his primary review. What a savaging he handed out. I very much enjoyed BoB and never read the book. but now any plans to read the book have vanished, and I'm rather wary of all books later from the guys shown in BoB. Or is this concern misguided? I know of one (or is it more?) by Dick Winters, and I'm pretty sure I've seen another by the sniper, too. Speaking of BoB, it did have some pretty impressive visuals (no idea as to factual accuracy), within the vexed angular limits of the cameras. You know, the framing insanity that makes a Star Trek battle look like a sneeze at the helm will cause a space pileup? Not so bad here, with the bonus of learning Russian!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A1-OqsBELjI

Regards,

John Kettler