To battlefront

[A Canadian Cat]

Also, every piece of DRM for every game ever made has been broken, DRM only causes trouble for legitimate customers.

^^^^

That right there is why I hate these kind of systems. Sadly we are stuck with them.

[Pak40]

Also, every piece of DRM for every game ever made has been broken, DRM only causes trouble for legitimate customers.

Yet without it we'd all be playing Xbox instead of PC games. It wasn't that long ago that PC games were being hacked or copied at such an alarming rate that it became very unprofitable for companies. Usenet and torrents were rampant with just about every game published. There's no denying that current current DRM methods are making PC games profitable again. Steam is evidence of this, their game library is astounding.

And by the way, "DRM only causes trouble for legitimate customers" is an erroneous statement. DRM rarely causes trouble for legitimate customers is more accurate.

[sfhand]

Yet without it we'd all be playing Xbox instead of PC games. It wasn't that long ago that PC games were being hacked or copied at such an alarming rate that it became very unprofitable for companies. Usenet and torrents were rampant with just about every game published. There's no denying that current current DRM methods are making PC games profitable again. Steam is evidence of this, their game library is astounding.

And by the way, "DRM only causes trouble for legitimate customers" is an erroneous statement. DRM rarely causes trouble for legitimate customers is more accurate.

Dude! Why won't you attach to my halftrack?

[Pak40]

Dude! Why won't you attach to my halftrack?

You need to purchase the Halftrack to AT gun extension module. It's available in the Battlefront Store now

[Pelican Pal]

Yet without it we'd all be playing Xbox instead of PC games. It wasn't that long ago that PC games were being hacked or copied at such an alarming rate that it became very unprofitable for companies. Usenet and torrents were rampant with just about every game published. There's no denying that current current DRM methods are making PC games profitable again. Steam is evidence of this, their game library is astounding.

Generally speaking it is incredibly hard to pin down what pirating actually does to sales for PC games. Although it does make a good scapegoat. We do know that the more a game is pirated the more successful it is. We also know that giving users value added experience is a way to avoid piracy. Steam doesn't do so well because of its DRM, but because it adds value and ease of use to the buying experience. Steam DRM is can be cracked just like everything else that the industry tried. The difference is Steam adds value and makes the purchasing experience simple.

[MikeyD]

...what pirating actually does to sales for PC games.

Well, there have been a number of people posting over the past week complaining bitterly about having to pay anything at all for the product. If there was a bootleg BFC product to be got BFC wouldn't see another dime from them.

[Pelican Pal]

If that product was equivalently as easy to get as the store bought version, morally okay with them, and as up to date as the purchased game.

There currently are bootleg copies but they are none of these things.

[Michael Emrys]

We do know that the more a game is pirated the more successful it is.

You do know, don't you, if you turn that statement around, it is probably even more true? That is, the more successful and popular a game is, the more it will tend to attract pirates.

Michael

[c3k]

Dude! Why won't you attach to my halftrack?

Don't listen to him! He will use it AGAINST you!

Ken

[Pelican Pal]

You do know, don't you, if you turn that statement around, it is probably even more true? That is, the more successful and popular a game is, the more it will tend to attract pirates.

Michael

Yes, that is also true.

They mean the same thing.

More importantly what that represents monetarily is an unknown.

[Lacroix]

i dont think torrents hurt CMx2 games ,even if some people download torrent i think most of them will buy the game later, like i did. and those who do not manage to get into it , willl just forget about it. i played that torrent 1.1 or 1.01 thinking its not a good game, and later i realised its one of the best games on the market, so i bought several expansions and the main game and planing to buy RT/FI and almost anything BF throws at me.

on other hand if you have fully updated torrents and quick pirate, that would do some damage for sure,but even then i dont see the damage being huge.

then again, if the game is good as it is, i think many people would still buy it just to honor it, even if there are fully updated torrents simply because CM is played long term

and those who don't have money, well DRM wont help them or BFC. those who dont have money will not buy your product with or without DRM in place, simply cos they dont have money

[c3k]

If torrents INCREASE sales because they allow free tryouts, then what are the free demos?

There is no way to be intellectually honest and conclude that pirated software is good for the producer or the consumer (honest or dishonest). It provides a short-term benefit for a small subset of (dishonest) consumers.

The parallel would be somehow concluding that squatters are good for home buyers and builders.

I pay to reward producers. I just walked to a bagel shop and paid more than I would've liked, but I bought 'em anyway. Because I want to keep that bagel shop in town. I'd hate to have to buy mass-produced, bagged, bagels in the grocery store because the local bagel bakery lost too much business.

If you don't respect intellectual property rights, do you also not respect personal property rights? What's the difference? And, why should anyone respect your property rights according to that logic?

Just my .02...

Ken

[Lacroix]

If torrents INCREASE sales because they allow free tryouts, then what are the free demos?

There is no way to be intellectually honest and conclude that pirated software is good for the producer or the consumer (honest or dishonest). It provides a short-term benefit for a small subset of (dishonest) consumers.

The parallel would be somehow concluding that squatters are good for home buyers and builders.

I pay to reward producers. I just walked to a bagel shop and paid more than I would've liked, but I bought 'em anyway. Because I want to keep that bagel shop in town. I'd hate to have to buy mass-produced, bagged, bagels in the grocery store because the local bagel bakery lost too much business.

If you don't respect intellectual property rights, do you also not respect personal property rights? What's the difference? And, why should anyone respect your property rights according to that logic?

Just my .02...

Ken

i played demo and i couldnt extract the soul of the game from it, i had to have more content available. cm is not popular enough so that these unupdated torrents can damage it, and people playing cm are generaly not so childlish as for example Call of duty / total war playerbase

[Pak40]

i dont think torrents hurt CMx2 games ,even if some people download torrent i think most of them will buy the game later, like i did.

This is just speculation on your part. You have no idea whether they hurt the company or not.

and those who do not manage to get into it , willl just forget about it.

^^^^This, right there is hurting BFC. I'm sure that BFC would rather people "get into" their games but the fact is that some people purchase their games and don't get into them. I'm living proof of that. I've bought the Theater of War games and hardly ever played them. Now possibly I could have downloaded them via Torrent or Usenet but I PAID MONEY. If Torrent/Usenet or other illegal sources never existed then a lot of these people would have bought the game rather than illegally download it. Some of these would "get into" the games and others wouldn't, but the point is that they paid for their product make the game(s) profitable (hopefully).

i played that torrent 1.1 or 1.01 thinking its not a good game, and later i realised its one of the best games on the market, so i bought several expansions and the main game and planing to buy RT/FI and almost anything BF throws at me.

Probably not a good idea to mention that you illegally downloaded one of their games on their board. I'm glad you decided to buy the games but you're probably in the minority.

on other hand if you have fully updated torrents and quick pirate, that would do some damage for sure,but even then i dont see the damage being huge.

then again, if the game is good as it is, i think many people would still buy it just to honor it, even if there are fully updated torrents simply because CM is played long term

Again, pure speculation on your part. Just out of curiosity, how many games have you downloaded via torrent/Usenet etc. ? How many of these have you actually ended up buying?

and those who don't have money, well DRM wont help them or BFC. those who dont have money will not buy your product with or without DRM in place, simply cos they dont have money

And this makes it OK to download via torrent? Chances are, if they own a computer capable of playing CM and have access to the internet, they can afford to buy the game or ask for it as a Christmas/birthday present, whatever.

[Ultradave]

why would they trust me that its hardware change, i could have sold 2 of them and lie about it.

also i am prone to changes in general, i might need 20 keys in next 2 years... and whos gona give me that lol

I have had to do this a few times and they were very responsive. Operating system changes will sometimes make it necessary to re-activate. It hasn't been a problem yet.

[Michael Emrys]

They mean the same thing.

Ah well, no they don't. See, in the statement that you wrote, you are implying that piracy makes a game more successful, which may or may not be true on its own, but is not the same thing.

Michael

[Lacroix]

Again, pure speculation on your part. Just out of curiosity, how many games have you downloaded via torrent/Usenet etc. ? How many of these have you actually ended up buying?

And this makes it OK to download via torrent? Chances are, if they own a computer capable of playing CM and have access to the internet, they can afford to buy the game or ask for it as a Christmas/birthday present, whatever.

when i was younger, milions of games. now, very few, i dont even bother with triple aaa games anymore

what is right or wrong is very complex subject and very subjecitve. but what i can say is that simply some people really wont have money for CM , specially if they are not living in tier 1 euro/amero countries

rest of the points you made that i didnt quote i have no answer to, because you are right i am offering mere speculations, but tbh not fantasy ones

[Mord]

what is right or wrong is very complex subject and very subjecitve. but what i can say is that simply some people really wont have money for CM , specially if they are not living in tier 1 euro/amero countries

There is nothing subjective about right and wrong, my friend. If I take something that doesn't belong to me or that I didn't pay for, then, it is wrong, period. It's not like we are talking about a man that steals a loaf of bread to feed his starving children. A game does nothing for humanity or survivability but entertain. Theft is theft. Doesn't matter what your economic circumstances are or what country you live in. There's no gray area. No semantics.

Mord.

[vonRocko]

i dont like activation keys. looking from my personal angle, i had to install new 64 bit system and change graphic card. i did it all in one shot to avoid losing 2 keys. but what if i was unable to do it in 1 shot, i 'd be left with one key now.and tomorrow i might add more ram or simply due to mechanical failure or something similar remove any parts of the pc and put them back, i will have 0 keys. even if you give me 8 keys its not the point. i want to have my copy of the game for the eternity and do what i want with it.

CM games not very expensive, but they are expensive, specialy if you want to have all of them

these keys are limiting me in so many ways, because i value BF games and dont wana lose them, but in same time i dont have 200 dollars to give again in such a short period after i lose the keys due to these legit situations writen beyond. its matter of weeks or months untill i lose 1 more key and i ll have 5 or more months untill i can send a request for 1 more which i can lose in matter of days/weeks/years

i know if you dont have keys people would just buy 1 game and distribute it like crazy but this is not the solution.its worse than most hardcore anti pirate systems in the world. at least there you have your game for real, this is like renting keys/time

i know this has little to no impact on your views/policies, this single thread but please consider changing this

Great game but the worst activation system in the business. IMHO

[Lacroix]

There is nothing subjective about right and wrong, my friend. If I take something that doesn't belong to me or that I didn't pay for, then, it is wrong, period. It's not like we are talking about a man that steals a loaf of bread to feed his starving children. A game does nothing for humanity or survivability but entertain. Theft is theft. Doesn't matter what your economic circumstances are or what country you live in. There's no gray area. No semantics.

Mord.

its easy to say that its not subjective i mean everyone can say that. but in reality you can't just single handedly decide what is right or wrong, if theres such thing.

i mean why would i agree with '' no , its like this, i am right, its not subjective''.

there might be someone who would say '' no,even if you steal bread for children, its a theft, its not allowed, period its not allowed''

then who is right, you or him? where do we draw the line, if theres such thing

i dont belive in right and wrong only in different choices, so i cant resonate with you very much, you can have like 80% or 90% people on this forum on your side (of the argument) but thats just argument of the majority, and we all know what is that, numbers.

we are not talking about 2+2 = 4 , we are talking something more apperantly complex

[sburke]

Aaarrgghh maties, where is this pirate game and what ship be she sailing?

I think folks who feel piracy has any decent aspect at all for game development have been nipping the rum a bit too much. Frankly you have your heads so far up your collective arses you probably have dual tongue action. How anyone could possibly conclude having a portion of your sales stolen is a healthy business model is beyond me. Nope sounds more like someone trying to convince themselves that stealing is okay if only the business owner was as much an economic whiz kid as yourselves.

I hate the drm too, but I chose to hate the folks who force software developers to use it - the cheap ass jerks who feel they are entitled to just take sh*t they have not paid for. And I don't buy that line that you only used torrent to try it with more content. I'd be willing to bet the drm had more to do with eventually buying it.

[sburke]

its easy to say that its not subjective i mean everyone can say that. but in reality you can't just single handedly decide what is right or wrong, if theres such thing.

i mean why would i agree with '' no , its like this, i am right, its not subjective''.

there might be someone who would say '' no,even if you steal bread for children, its a theft, its not allowed, period its not allowed''

then who is right, you or him? where do we draw the line, if theres such thing

i dont belive in right and wrong only in different choices, so i cant resonate with you very much, you can have like 80% or 90% people on this forum on your side (of the argument) but thats just argument of the majority, and we all know what is that, numbers.

we are not talking about 2+2 = 4 , we are talking something more apperantly complex

Nope sorry, I call BS. You were stealing the game. That is wrong. You can try and throw up a lot of smoke to excuse all you want but fact is you were stealing the game. And worse you obviously could afford it.

[Lacroix]

Nope sorry, I call BS. You were stealing the game. That is wrong. You can try and throw up a lot of smoke to excuse all you want but fact is you were stealing the game. And worse you obviously could afford it.

i don't feel bad about it i guess i am evil.marking my arguments as throwing smoke just like that makes me not to go into further discussion about this because whatever i say it will be called semantics or smoke , without actually prooving its 2 things mentioned. its just called that because it doesn't resonate with your views that are deeply rooted.

ofcourse all this also sounds like semantics, i know

[Hister]

Ok, about time this gets locked me thinks.

[Pelican Pal]

There are a lot of poor assumptions that are being made. We don't have a firm hand on the rate of piracy for any given game. Furthermore, we don't know what that means for sales.

You also cannot fully equate digital piracy with physical theft. If you have one apple and I take it you are out an apple. However if you have a picture of an apple and I copy that picture you still have a picture. You lost nothing by my action. To copy a digital file is free. So at a base level piracy costs the original file owner nothing.

Now a second important point. Pirating a game does not mean that I would have purchased it.

So the actual effect of piracy on any given game's income is an unknown. Whether the effect is negative or positive is also an unknown. It is quite possible that piracy could increase the overall income a game earns.

Whether DRM is even required isn't even a sure thing.