Drug Wars?

[Sublime]

Yeah there's a definite difference between crystal meth and the stuff they got. And DB- the Allies had uppers way before Normandy. As I tried to already tell you (as a fact btw) ALL major sides in the war used uppers for aircrew, and other troops in certain situations.

Trust me drugs wouldnt help you in combat much (as stated by others) except to keep you awake. And you can take this from someone who did A LOT of drugs for years.

The atrocities? As said, it was ideology and ORDERS to commit atrocities that I think had the biggest effect on German behavior. Being ordered to live off the land, the Commissar Order, and Einsatzgruppen were already being done, they were dependent on supplies of speed. Even descriptions of Einsatz actions (such as Babi Yar) only mention some of the SS getting $hitfaced drunk to deal with doing it. Even then, the ones who obviously were upset by shooting thousands of women and children were quietly withdrawn and placed into combat.

Also, on a somewhat related note - heroin and morphine use in the US during WW2 reached *ALL TIME* lowest levels it ever had. The problem was nearly eradicated until a few years after the war.

[Oddball_E8]

Also, on a somewhat related note - heroin and morphine use in the US during WW2 reached *ALL TIME* lowest levels it ever had. The problem was nearly eradicated until a few years after the war.

Well that kinda makes sense... if you take a very large part of the male population aged 16-30 (counting both age-forgers and "old timers" here) and ship them out of the country, drug use is bound to go down

[Sublime]

Its more complicated than that. One issue was the world was at war, smuggling became that much harder. Also the fascists in Italy really did a lot of damage to the Italian mafia.

The addiction problem was helped after the war by a surge of GIs addicted to morphine, but more importantly by the rise of the CIA and it's involvement in covert activities that it would fund by drug smuggling, especially in Southeast Asia.

A great book on the subject is The Politics of Heroin: CIA Complicity in the Global Drug Trade by Alfred McCoy.

[Macisle]

I don't know how accurate the book is, but in A Time for Trumpets, there are several references to American soldiers during the Bulge wondering if attacking Germans were drugged. According to the book, the way the Germans were attacking seemed downright "stupid" --i.e. totally lacking in tactical finesse and with individual soldiers having a vacant look in their eyes and not taking as much care to avoid enemy fire as they normally would.

Some of them might have been on something. But then again, given the difficulty of the attack, the weather and the level of training/experience of many of the units, it could have just seemed that way.

[Michael Emrys]

Some of them might have been on something. But then again, given the difficulty of the attack, the weather and the level of training/experience of many of the units, it could have just seemed that way.

This gets my vote. By this stage of the war, Germany was not only scraping the bottom of the manpower barrel, they were scraping all the way through the bottom and into the underlying soil. Probably the troops committed to the Bulge were a notch or two above average, but a lot of them would have still been green or even under-trained. They could also have been considerably hyped up on the knowledge that this might be the last chance to win an acceptable peace for Nazi Germany.

Michael

[agusto]

They could also have been considerably hyped up on the knowledge that this might be the last chance to win an acceptable peace for Nazi Germany.

I think that the excessive propaganda in Nazi Germany made many believe that they could still win the war, even in 1944. The 17 and 18 year old generation of recruits who fought in the Battle of the Bulge more or less grew up during the Nazi regime, they had never seen anything else but Nazi propaganda and thus were completely loyal, believing everything the propaganda machine told them. Also, a peace with the soviets had never been an option for Hitler. The plan was AFAIK to make peace with the western allies and subsequently make them fight alongside germany against what Goebbels called the "Bolshevist Hordes".

[Sublime]

I think the drugged stupor attitude is more a reflection of utter exhaustion and poor diet, more than drugs. For one thing the Germans had fuel and ammo shortages, I think a constant supply of drugs would have been hard. It's possible they were used in a one off thing, but I think most likely any drugs used were used to stay awake, not turn their soldiers into zombies.

The reason Im so doubtful is that I've noticed a trend, especially in US/Brit accounts from WW2/Korea/Vietnam/Present where unexplainable behavior in combat is attributed to drugs. Im pretty sure if GIs were in the boots of the landsers in the Eastern Front they would have been convinced the Soviet human wave attacks were the results of drugs too.

Also what seemed mad to American soldiers - German troops clearly fighting on with no hope of winning- is different to other soldiers, due to propaganda, beliefs in honor, or whatever. This also explains US soldiers occasional shock at say VC/NVA activities in Vietnam. To us it was a dirty war in a pissant country, to them it was their war of independence, and a civil war rolled into one.

Finally, whilst obviously alcohol and drug use have occurred on perhaps nearly all battlefields in history, I have noticed a trend that being f*cked up on the front itself was frowned upon by any nationality. US soldiers in Vietnam did drugs liberally in the base or in the rear, but out in the field it was frowned upon. Of course it still happened quite a bit, and a lot of units paid for it. In the Wehrmacht there are accounts of the soldiers being drunk at the front in awful situations like Stalingrad December 1942, (76th ID soldiers drunk on perfume, I believe I remember that from Beevor's Stalingrad. Could be another Stalingrad book though) Of course also being drunk is different than say being on speed. It cuts both ways - there is a bad 'crash' after the speed wears off and people pass out. In everything I read the only definitive account in modern times of an army handing out drugs to people who probably were going off to combat was the US AAF/AF use of benzedrine uppers for its aircrews to keep them awake. Theres a lot more of alcohol - Russians getting drunk before/during/and after combat (a notable exception besides of course the British Navy) and German troops in penal battalions and shady SS units (Dirlewanger) being hammered, but those are far from regular line units.

[agusto]

In everything I read the only definitive account in modern times of an army handing out drugs to people who probably were going off to combat was the US AAF/AF use of benzedrine uppers for its aircrews to keep them awake.

The Wehrmacht officially purchased Pervitin pills by the hundereds of millions during the war.

Of course also being drunk is different than say being on speed. It cuts both ways - there is a bad 'crash' after the speed wears off and people pass out.

Depends on dosage IMO. The dosage of speed people consume when they are going out is probably significantly higher than the dosage that would have a "positive" effect on a soldiers performance in combat. A small dosage may have positive effects on the one hand and only minor, bearable negative side effects.

[Sublime]

Note I said people I know of going directly into combat. Yes the wehrmacht officially purchased plenty of pervitin, but I havent actually read many accounts of it being used literally on the front or in combat. In addition to that, I do specifically remember an account from a soldier stating he liked the Pervitin, and had to have his parents mail him more because the Wehrmacht wouldn't continually supply him.

[LongLeftFlank]

Fun thread, though several convoys worth of mythology floating around, no doubt. Here, I'll invent some more:

"In early 1944 Hitler's physician, Dr. Morell, convinced him to man the Atlantic Wall with 'stomach battalions' of ailing men fortified with Koester's Anti-Gas Pills, manufactured under contract by Bayer AG and for which Morell received a commission."

[fry30]

As far as I know, the survival kit of several modern Air Forces still includes dextroamphetamine pills. Granted, it's nowhere near as bad as methamphetamine but it's understandably being replaced by less notorious stuff like modafinil.

Pep pills. Without doing too much digging, (however I will if someone is interested), you can find videos online detailing the usage of pep pills by Heli pilots in our modern military. I believe at least one friendly fire incident was blamed on them, and when Bradley Manning released the helicopter footage (amongst other things) of the air assault on the imbedded AP reporter in Iraq, the narrator said something to the effect that the pilots were under a lot of stress, what with flying multiple sorties and being strung out on, you guessed it, pep pills. I guess that is a pretty big accusation, so again, if anyone is interested, I'll start digging.

-Getting weird and not really interested in dropping sources, Chicago Manual style is so 20th century: Hitler had cocaine eye drops and usually took a good shot of amphetamine to get him going in the morning. Mixed with morphine, or perhaps it was Heroin (marketed by Bayer, until it lost the rights along with Aspirin post Versailles treaty). My main man JFK ate pills like they were candy, and this was 20 years later. I don't know who I'm arguing with now, but you wouldn't believe that Obama/Bush/Putin have never popped a beta-blocker, benzo, or amphetamine-salt tabet?

"Its made by scientists, Dewey."

[sburke]

Also, no discussion about drugs and the military is complete without this video of LSD being tested on British troops:

That is not only hysterically funny, it is also about the most honest and valid government review of the effects of dropping acid I have ever seen. I love the radio operator and the dude climbing the tree.

ahh memories....

[mjkerner]

That is not only hysterically funny, it is also about the most honest and valid government review of the effects of dropping acid I have ever seen. I love the radio operator and the dude climbing the tree.

ahh memories....

LOL, I was thinking the same thing.

[db_zero]

Its not just pep pills. What about anti-depressants? Maybe someone who's in the know can explain the suicide risk from taking them. Is it true that of you read the fine print, its a scientific fact that a certain percentage who take them will become suicidal or do irrational things?

[ZPB II]

Its not just pep pills. What about anti-depressants? Maybe someone who's in the know can explain the suicide risk from taking them. Is it true that of you read the fine print, its a scientific fact that a certain percentage who take them will become suicidal or do irrational things?

Actually, nevermind. I had a point about SSRI being really, really bad. But I forgot most of it.

Still, the dangers of SSRI are substantial and it is worrying that they are being subscribed dime-a-dozen. (atleast in Finland)

SSRI has a very real chance of making you suicidal and irrational when your body is adapting to it. In some cases the adverse effects continue far beyond that. A person with scientific background once told me most school shooters have been subscribed with SSRI medication. The majority of depressed people have been, but still.

[agusto]

What about anti-depressants? Maybe someone who's in the know can explain the suicide risk from taking them. Is it true that of you read the fine print, its a scientific fact that a certain percentage who take them will become suicidal or do irrational things?

Yes, that is true. But actually the suicidal thoughts dont come from the anti-depressants themselves - they are already there before the therapy with anti-depressants starts. However one of the major symptoms of depression is a decreased "drive", a decreased motivation to do things. So depressed people often think of suicide but they are too depressed to actually do it. If now a patient starts to take anti-depressants, it is possible that the drive to do things increases before the other depressive symptoms, like a depressed mood, feelings of hopelesness and suicidal thoughts go away. If that happens, then there is a temporarily increased suicide risk for a couple of weeks. That is why they recommend in the fine print that you shouldnt kill yourself immediately after starting a therapy with anti-depressants but instead wait until your mood improves.

[Erwin]

"...recommend in the fine print that you shouldn't kill yourself immediately after starting a therapy with anti-depressants but instead wait until your mood improves."

[Sublime]

Hitler had cocaine eye drops and usually took a good shot of amphetamine to get him going in the morning. Mixed with morphine, or perhaps it was Heroin (marketed by Bayer, until it lost the rights along with Aspirin post Versailles treaty).

chicago manual being outdated or not, I'd be very interested in the source for the cocaine eye drops because I dont believe it. Injections? Sure. Eyedrops? I dont see it. I've vaguely heard reference to Hitler maybe doing cocaine injections. Its well known he took injections of a sort of cocktail his 'Dr' Morrell would mix up for him, with amphetamines included. Goering was a famous morphine addict, but not heroin AFAIK. Though of course heroin and morphine are VERY similar, chemically and as far as the high goes. Also, IIRC Bayer simply stopped producing heroin about a decade before WW1, it had nothing to do with Versailles.

As far as the anti depressants thing, a big problem in America is the big fat book of diagnoses of mental illnesses and the medication/treatment needed is funded by... Pharmaceutical companies. Thats like me asking a crack dealer if crack will cure headaches. Obviously the answer is 'yes' , and 'buy a lot'.

[Toblakai]

There is no evidence, that Hitler took cocaine or amphetamine injections, but he got a lot of other injections from his personal physician Theo Morell. Another good german documentation about this theme: "Krankenakte Hitler (patient's records Hitler)".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NMy6QQHqBa4

The answer of this question will be unanswered. Same like the question of Hitler’s mental state.

[Toblakai]

Very interesting documentation, definately gonna watch it. Thanks for posting.

Aber immer gerne doch!