ALLIED : Gustav Line BETA AAR Round Two - Eye of the Elefant

[JonS]

Lets face it there are insufficient defending troops/points and Bill is edge hugging on both sides of the map. Sucks.

Yeah. Hannibal and Cetshwayo were such gamey bastiches. They should've used fewer men and just gone straight up the guts, like Deez would've ... if he played the game

[GreenAsJade]

Movie 48, 0:23-0:22

Further confirmation that Bill is conducting a left flank press, probably aiming all the way for SMI...

A scouting group bumped into my HMG on the reverse slope of Hill 153. In addition, I have sound contacts of vehicles moving on the far far left.

At the same time, a tank sound has shown up back on Hill 130. That's curious: I was pretty certain the Brummbar that was there had moved over to the centre ... maybe it came back!? That's pretty bad news for me: once again, my whole left side becomes a non-manoeuvring area, on the high ground.

My HQ unit in the centre took out the scout that was trying to come over from the centre right. Meanwhile, sound contacts seem to indicate that Bill is pushing hard with his armour up the centre right - faster than the inf screen could go, I think.

In Tame, my shoot and scoot of the AAHT did not draw any results: it didn't manage to spot any of Bil's troops in Tame before coming under small arms fire itself, and pulling back. My mortar unit has established a heavier field of smoke between the front infantry forces and the accompanying armour, so I think I can try another go with the AAHT - this time I will area fire into a building where Bil's troops headed.

[GreenAsJade]

Further to the right, I had another spotting challenge. I've been in two minds whether to talk about this, because the way I see it, it is just normal battlefield frustration: if things don't go your way, they seem bad It's been sad to read the resulting complaining about bugs and so-on when I've reported these previously. But ... I'm here to report what happens, so here it is.

Unfortunately, I correctly predicted where Bil's PzIVh would pop up next, but didn't get to spot it.

See the PzIVH that popped up neatly where my M10 was sitting waiting for it...

See what the M10 sees:

Dang, they haven't picked up the PzIVh yet. (It's actually the HMG team just in front of the M10 who can see the PzIVh).

The first thing you might say, looking at these pictures, is "that dummy GaJ has got his M10s buttoned up again". And it is true that in this picture the gunner (I guess?) has popped down, and the M10 is showing as "buttoned". But there's a bit more than meets the eye. First of all, the gunner only just popped down, in response to a mortar round in the last second of the turn, shown in the next picture. The M10 was unbuttoned with the PzIVH was there in view for 5-10s before this.

I wondered why it is that the M10 is so bad at spotting.

This is what the buttoned M10 looks like:

It seems to me that this TC is still getting a pretty good look with his binos. Even more interesting (to me) ... this is what an unbuttoned M10 looks like:

... I'm not convinced the visibility is that much better. Sure - an extra person looking, but not much more field of view, eh?

Anyhow, be that as it may, this M10 has not spotted the PzIVh, so I'll give him a short pause plus area fire target at where the PzIVh is, then pull him back.

GaJ

[dieseltaylor]

So the M-10 modelling is counter-intuitive. He uses his binoculars when he is buttoned! JonS - I am glad we can agree on the edge-hugging. Your historical commanders never had guaranteed flanks and of course fought before the concept of a continuous front.

[c3k]

Is there a chance that vegetation blocks the gunner's sight? Low hanging tree branches? The LOS to a low spot, the ground in front of the PzIV, may be clear, but lifting the LOS up to the PzIV may intersect foliage. Just a guess...

Ken

[Hister]

Dang and dang again!

[General Lee Irked]

May I refer your M10 crew to my opthamologist?

Dr. I Kanceenow

[Rastamon]

Are the driver and radio operator not looking out their vision ports? Should be at least three pairs of eyes looking forward.

[Vark]

Why the heck is the M-10 commander not standing higher up, when unbuttoned?

[sburke]

Why the heck is the M-10 commander not standing higher up, when unbuttoned?

Enough of the short jokes. He can't help it if he is of small stature. And what has the state of his fly got to do with how erect he is...umm wait a minute, that didn't sound right...

[GreenAsJade]

One thing to be said about this: you make your luck. Bil obviously knows that I have a couple of open topped AFVs in this area, and he's shelling it. This is causing them to be skittish and button up. As a result my spotting chances are reduced. That's making your luck.

I think the images of the modelling of buttoned and unbuttoned are interesting as a curiosity ... I was trying to see for myself "why might it be that being buttoned is so much worse?" ... and I was also curious about why only the gunner (or whoever that is on the left) pops down. But I don't think this really affects how well the tank spots in-game. They aren't modelling the photons going from the sun, bouncing off the PzIVh and into the guys' eyes. There is some formula, with an element of chance and depending on buttoned state and other factors, that determined whether my M10 spotted. I rolled snake eyes, but Bil loaded the dice with mortar fire...

GaJ

[dieseltaylor]

Foliage may be the answer as c3k suggests.

[John Kettler]

GreenAsJade,

Here's the M10/T70/M5 ATG TD Crew Training & Drill Manual

http://www.tankdestroyer.net/images/stories/ManualPDFs/FM18-15%20Tank%20Destroyer%20Drill%20and%20Crew%20Drill-%203-Inch%20Gun%20Motor%20Carriage%20M10-%2076-mm%20Gun%20Motor%20Carriage%20T70%20-%203-Inch%20Towed%20Gun%20-Gun%20M5%20and%20Carriage%20M1.pdf

Who does what and looks where on the march is detailed on page 34 in Paragraph 27. From there, the text carries on regarding the ascending changes as the TD nears and enters battle. Paragraph 28 says the same sector watch and observation procedures as Paragraph 27 apply when the TD is moving tactically. Paragraph 29 gets into specific combat duties, from which it becomes immediately obvious that eyeballs and sector coverage drop dramatically. Paragraph 30 is the nitty gritty chapter and verse of direct fire combat. From what I can see, your unbuttoned M10 has nowhere nearly enough eyeballs available,up and looking in the right places. Recommend you take this issue and related ones (who's up or can see what while buttoned) up with devs, since it fundamentally affects combat performance in the game.

Regards,

John Kettler

[GreenAsJade]

There is foliage involved: the M10 is looking through a tree - you can see the trunk of it in the earlier picture. However, this is a similar situation to Bil's tanks taking out my M10s through the trees.

The actual LOS at the PzIVH is like this:

And with the M10 deselected:

It's possible I can see the grass at the feet of the tank, but not the tank. It seems more likely that I just haven't spotted it yet...

GaJ

[Battlefront.com]

We've had discussions about spotting chances a million times before. The basic complaint gamers have is "In real war AFVs were practically blind. You need to change spotting rules completely. Unless it's my AFVs, in which case anything other than instant spotting is a bug and needs to be fixed!"

I'm not kidding even a little bit

Spotting in CM is overly generous in general, so I don't see anything wrong with the M10 not spotting the PzIV as much as I could probably point to other circumstances in this AAR where spotting was achieved too quickly. Unfortunately we can't make spotting "realistic" as people would stop playing because people actually want things to be instantaneous for their side.

There are so many possible reasons that the M10 can't yet see the PzIV. "Bad luck" is certainly one of them.

Steve

[MikeyD]

I would suggest toggling trees just to see how dense the foliage really is around those two tanks. I'm seeing a lot of bare tree trunks in the vicinity of both vehicles. You may gasp when you hit alt-T and find yourself deep in the woods... maybe.

[Battlefront.com]

The other thing to keep in mind is how may seconds are elapsing between the first possible second a spotting is technically possible and when we see an action noted in an AAR. Chances are there isn't much time involved. There's a big difference between a unit not spotting something within 5-10 seconds and a unit not spotting something in 60-120 seconds.

Steve

[Michael Emrys]

Or 5-10 minutes, which I am confident happened more than rarely in real life.

Michael

[Battlefront.com]

I related a story in one of the many threads about spotting that had happened to me a week or so before. Driving late at night on a highway that has almost no traffic, no lights, no nothing (I do like living in the woods!). I was alert, but my attention was forward to look out for deer/moose. Next thing I know there's a car passing me on my left. FREAKED ME OUT because I didn't notice it in the review at all, yet I check it constantly. You'd think it would be impossible for me to miss the headlights, but it happened. And I was relatively well rested, well fed, relaxed, etc.

Checking the comments out on this Forum I'd guess a pretty big chunk of players would say what happened to me was impossible. Life is not all about delivering what we expect on a silver platter!

Steve

[Battlefront.com]

Oh, and GaJ... keep up the good work. Reading Bil's stuff (this AAR and others) I know he's a tough opponent. Not only is he very good at tactics, but he knows how the game works to a degree few others do and he is quite good at applying that knowledge to his victims. I mean opponents

Steve

[sburke]

pffft he's a pushover. All you need is a superior force in a great defensive position where LOS is too short for him to use his support weapons and there is no real opportunity to even maneuver much. Piece of cake.

[dieseltaylor]

Or 5-10 minutes, which I am confident happened more than rarely in real life.

Michael

Anecdotes about headlights aside this is a live battlefield and moving large objects at quite close range - 800ft. I don't hold with it being a difficult spot.

Non-spotting for non-moving targets for days or hours I have no problem with but not spotting vehicles moving close too!?

[c3k]

Well, if that PzIV had zoomed up from BEHIND the M10, then that car analogy would be apt. Perhaps a better parallel would be to ask how alert would you have been to a van full of hungry bears coming towards you?

[GreenAsJade]

Oh, and GaJ... keep up the good work. Reading Bil's stuff (this AAR and others) I know he's a tough opponent. Not only is he very good at tactics, but he knows how the game works to a degree few others do and he is quite good at applying that knowledge to his victims. I mean opponents

Steve

Thanks for the encouragement - sorry about moaning and groaning as I play your beautiful game. As I've said before, it's pretty hard not to moan and groan when you're being whupped. I am not complaining about the spotting mechanics, only my bad luck.

GaJ

[GreenAsJade]

BTW, I have Alt-T'ed of course - I mostly play with trees on. There are leaves intervening, but no more than the amount that Bil's tanks had when they picked off mine.

Curse him and his hawk-eyed Nazi commanders...

GaJ