ALLIED : Gustav Line BETA AAR Round Two - Eye of the Elefant

[GreenAsJade]

The next few seconds should have been full of joy, as the PzIHv drove right along side, broadside, my wating bazooka team:

These guys did everything you could ask of them: they nailed the PzIVh through the gap in its skirt:

... but alas no joy. The indestructible PzIVh reversed back over the road, and is just out of grenade range of my snakes:

... who continued to fire their rifles at it.

[GreenAsJade]

Another PzIVh kill opportunity - not quite as good as the previous one - also did not come to fruition this turn.

Last turn Bil rushed a PzIVh up the centre right, well ahead of its infantry screen, to take out my mortar that was smoking Tame. At the end of last turn it looked like this:

... in the absence of an infantry screen, a good opportunity for a bazooka side shot. So my guys rushed across the road, only to find...

... nothing!

Possibly they should have gone just a little further, to allow for the possibility of the PzIVh heading towards Tame instead of continuing to press forwards against my AAHT, that is over on the right. I kinda didn't want them running into the Landsers coming up through Tame though.

It was very tempting to hunt on down the slope, but in the end I decided on the discretion option, and snuck these guys back up the slope to wait for another chance.

Meanwhile, the bunker took another penetrating shot, lost two guys, but remains operational but not spotting anything, still. Bil has set up a HMG on the slopes leading up to Tame - the bazooka guys could see it (another reason to pull back) but the bunker (which has LOS to the HMG) hasn't spotted it. If ever there's been a useless piece of kit to bring to the battle, this one is it!

Last of all, I had been repositioning my ATG that was watching the central ridge - the one that took out Bil's HTs. It's position was no good for dealing with the left hook that Bil is making, and I wasn't anticipating any more AFVs up the middle (since I know where they all are). There was a good route out of sight of the Tits and the left approach to go to a point covering the left hook. Unfortunately, my ATG can see Bil's inf coming up the centre left, which means that they can probably see it. Life expectancy: low!

GaJ

[John Kettler]

GreenAsJade,

A bazooka hit where the correctly modeled (WYSIWG) skirt armor wasn't? Outstanding! While it's unfortunate you didn't get an outright kill, I feel safe in asserting you still hurt that Panzer IV/H. Why? Been there myself.

I used a Panzerfaust 60 in one battle, hit a 76mm Sherman in the side armor from about 45 degree to the rear, and it, too, was able to back away a fair distance and into cover (nailed him through a hedge gap as he advanced). I suspect the high angle off was the reason the Sherman didn't die on the spot. At game's end, though, I found the crew Rattled and the Sherman so mobility damaged it could move only at Slow. I expect you hurt Bil's Panzer badly enough to remind him you're still in the fight. The crew knows this already!

May you get more such firing opportunities, and may they bear exploding Panzer fruit!

Regards,

John Kettler

[GreenAsJade]

GreenAsJade,

A bazooka hit where the correctly modeled (WYSIWG) skirt armor wasn't? Outstanding!

I thought y'all would like that.

While it's unfortunate you didn't get an outright kill, I feel safe in asserting you still hurt that Panzer IV/H. Why? Been there myself.

mmmmaybe.... it backed off pretty fast - I reckon if the damage modelling had been _really_ realistic, it should have thrown a tread, with an explosion right there on a travelling wheel... but I'm not betting any farms on it having more than a rattled crew, if that.

GaJ

[dieseltaylor]

Reading the historical bumf it seems the bazooka actually was a lot less effective than presented to the the public/soldiers and in the media at the time. One shot one kill is pure Hollywood.

Keeping the PIAT was possibly not as silly as it appeared.

[poesel]

IME infantry never throws grenades at a moving target. I haven't tested this but I guess the decision process takes too long or grenades don't use the 'gun code' that follows movement.

[womble]

GreenAsJade,

A bazooka hit where the correctly modeled (WYSIWG) skirt armor wasn't?

I think it's been said before that the skirts on the model aren't WYSIWYG. The assignment of model variations like damaged skirts is random and attracts no point rebate; if the model counts as having skirts, it has skirts.

While it's unfortunate you didn't get an outright kill...

The way the dice are falling in this particular game, I think GaJ would have been mad to expect a one-shot. They do happen with bazookas, but they're pretty rare.

...I feel safe in asserting you still hurt that Panzer IV/H. Why? Been there myself.

I used a Panzerfaust 60 in one battle, hit a 76mm Sherman in the side armor...

I didn't think you'd got GL? PF60s aren't available in BN unless they're about in the MG module and you're playtesting it. But a 'Faust is a verrrry different animal to a zook. Its behind armour effects are substantial rather than weak.

May you get more such firing opportunities, and may they bear exploding Panzer fruit!

Seconded. At last GaJ seems to be getting on the friendly side of the concealment offered by the long grass.

[c3k]

GreenAsJade,

A bazooka hit where the correctly modeled (WYSIWG) skirt armor wasn't? Outstanding! While it's unfortunate you didn't get an outright kill, I feel safe in asserting you still hurt that Panzer IV/H. Why? Been there myself.

LOL. I read that to mean that you claim to've been IN a PzIV which was hit by a bazooka.

I used a Panzerfaust 60 in one battle, hit a 76mm Sherman in the side armor from about 45 degree to the rear, and it, too, was able to back away a fair distance and into cover (nailed him through a hedge gap as he advanced). I suspect the high angle off was the reason the Sherman didn't die on the spot. At game's end, though, I found the crew Rattled and the Sherman so mobility damaged it could move only at Slow. I expect you hurt Bil's Panzer badly enough to remind him you're still in the fight. The crew knows this already!

May you get more such firing opportunities, and may they bear exploding Panzer fruit!

Regards,

John Kettler

Well, other than a panzerfaust and not a bazooka, and other than a Sherman and not a PzIV, yes, very close.

But, yes, given that they reversed, you can assume a morale hit, at least. Possibly a crew casualty as well. That tank may be a bit sluggish for the next few turns. THIS is the time to ATTACK!! Where are your satchel charges?

Ken

[Lethaface]

GreenAsJade,

A bazooka hit where the correctly modeled (WYSIWG) skirt armor wasn't? Outstanding! While it's unfortunate you didn't get an outright kill, I feel safe in asserting you still hurt that Panzer IV/H. Why? Been there myself.

I used a Panzerfaust 60 in one battle, hit a 76mm Sherman

John, you of all I would suspect to know about the vast differences between the warheads of a Panzerfaust and a bazooka, which are modeled in the game

[John Kettler]

Har! Har! And all that. The main point, and I may be a Panzerfaust model off, since I was working from memory, was that it is possible to get a penetrating HEAT hit on a tank's flank and yet not promptly inflict a M-Kill or K-Kill, instead causing unknown, but real, internal damage to the tank. Given the substantial disparity in size between the bazooka rocket and, I believe, any of the Panzerfausts, this sort of outcome is much more likely in the event of a bazooka hit, given the much lighter and smaller diameter warhead. But it's not merely warhead, but specific hit location, impact angle (on multiple axes), degree of over penetration and what component or components is in the direct or indirect path of the shaped charge jet. The shot line modeling employed in CMx2 is based on military survivability modeling methodologies and is quite sophisticated. A HEAT hit, depending on a host of factors, may or may not have hit the main tank structure and, if it has, may or may not penetrate what is hit. After that, the modeling computes what's in the way, to what depth of jet penetration and assesses, in real time, what the component loss or losses do to the victim tank. Now, tanks can be subjected to the proverbial Death of a Thousand Cuts, in which their ability to fight is progressively eroded by sustaining an ever growing collection of minor damage.

For the record, BFC recently directly confirmed that if there's no visual for a skirt panel on a given part of the tank, there's no skirt protection there, which is exactly as it should be. Torn off skirt panels are apparently randomly assigned with skirted tanks and reflect the real world norm in that seldom did you see a tank, StuG or Jagdpanzer with a full set present. Too many trees, rocks, walls and other obstacles present to catch and rip away skirt panels.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Vanir Ausf B]

I think it's been said before that the skirts on the model aren't WYSIWYG. The assignment of model variations like damaged skirts is random and attracts no point rebate; if the model counts as having skirts, it has skirts.

The most official word we have is that they are WYSIWYG.

http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?p=1446124#post1446124

[MG TOW]

I don't want to spin doctor this too much. But based on the literal interpretation of what's stated above, and WYSIWYG, the road wheels and return rollers are small on a MkIV, the damage in the screen cap is hull penetration. The projectile landed between the wheels and penetrated the transmission driveshaft compartment. Looking at cutaways, there's a lot of dead space and solid gearing. Again its a spin but seems quite plausible for minimal damage. Would be curious to know about the anatomy of this hit.

[womble]

The most official word we have is that they are WYSIWYG.

http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?p=1446124#post1446124

So it is. Funny how the memory can play tricks, innit? :-/

[John Kettler]

gundolf,

What you point out is one of the first things I learned in military aerospace about combat survivability. Lots of noncritical places where a hit can occur. My boss in Operation Research at Hughes used to have a VuGraph in which a WW I fighter plane, complete with piolt in leather helmet, scarf and goggles, was shown flying. The thing was a sieve! It had bullet holes everywhere but in the engine and pilot. He'd then ask his audience where the plane should be armored, which would generate a string of ideas, none right. Everyone, you see, wanted to armor some area with lots of hits to it. He'd then point out that you really wanted to protect the pilot and the engine, since the plane was still flying and they were the only two things not hit!

Here's what I have so far on Panzer IV interior layout. Granted, it's an early one, but much better than nothing.

http://panzerfaust.ca/AFV%20interiors/pz4a.html

Regards,

John Kettler

[GreenAsJade]

Movie 52, 0:19-0:18

My brave rangers fought the indescructible PzIVh to the death (theirs).

Here is the last thing I saw:

They got 3 grenade hits on it ... I guess only time will tell how much damage they dealt.

The last HE blast from the PzIVh also took out some of the commanders in a house, on the other side of the road!

A side story I really only just noticed this turn has been "4th crew, M10". They got left behind as a pulled out from Tame ... they've been spotting Bil's forces coming around the far right, but I hadn't given them much hope of surviving. But they are made of stern stuff: one is looking after his mate (Medic) while the other is fighting off two HTs!

There was plenty of action on the far left also ... another M10 tank crew did a sterling job of scouting and made life a bit harder for some of Bil's initial probe around the left. At the same time my M10 over there managed to head off an HT before it could come and wipe out my ATG:

This may pause the left hook for a little while ... Bil's own armour on this side is still far back behind Hill 153.

Unfortunately (as you can perhaps see in the picture) the ATG is suffering the same redeployment blues that the other one did on the right side: it's supposed to be "deploying", but the men are all "moving". I'm not at all sure it will get back in action even if Bil doesn't shell it where it sits...

GaJ

[John Kettler]

GreenAsJade,

So, Close Assault finished off the Panzer IV/H your bazooka winged earlier? I ask because at first glance I thought you were talking about having disabled a second tank, but am now pretty sure the tank your bazooka team hit is the same one your Rangers finished off. Is that right? In any event, congratulations! Must be very gratifying to off something larger than a halftrack.

Your TD crew evidently excelled during marksmanship training. A shot right through the open vision port! Shall be most interested to see if anyone inside ate one.

In your copious spare time, you might want to head over to the spotting thread that dieseltaylor started. I found the towed TD manual, and its full of grog goodness! Wish the photos were viewable (catastrophically poorly reproed), but the text and how to line drawings are most informative.

Regards,

John Kettler

[GreenAsJade]

I'm not sure if you need _such_ good marksmanship: just spray the HT with automatic weapon fire

I'm also not sure if the PzIVh is finished off or not: it disappeared off my radar when it killed the last close assaulter. So I think that the best I can hope for is immobilisation: the gun was still working. It is the same PzIVh that the bazooka hit earlier: the sequence was last turn 1) Close assaulters fire small arms as it drives by 2) Bazooka hits as it stops on the main road 3) It reverses back to near the close assaulters. This turn they ran direct at it and did their best...

GaJ

[John Kettler]

GreenAsJade,

Sigh. This seems to be my day for not reading posts closely enough. Somehow I missed the who/what died qualifier and filled in the rest based on your pic, which via smoke and light rendering, looks as if the forward skirt panel has been wrenched so badly out of position I concluded there had to be a kill of some sort. Further, the gun is evidently lying atop the engine deck. If so, the tank may be dead or dying. Fairly sure there's no "play possum" command!

Regards,

John Kettler

[GreenAsJade]

I think the gun is actually pointing down to fire the death blow at my poor guy!

GaJ

[John Kettler]

GreenAsJade,

And they say depression modeling isn't in. Were I in his shoes, I'd be pretty depressed, albeit briefly!

Regards,

John Kettler

[GreenAsJade]

Movie 53, 0:18-0:17

Well, FWIW, the indestructible PzIVh is still operating: it started shelling the building where my CO was previously. Fortunately those guys decided to get out of there this turn I think that if Bil is area firing an insignificant building like this, then it probably means the tank is immobilised... yay!

Bil's front line has pressed past the useless bunker near Tame. This bunker is slow to spot or fire on anything, still. This being the case, this turn I've decided to "dismount" the crew ... we'll see whether this can give Bil's front line troops a little surprise:

In more bunker action, right in the last spit second of the turn, a shell smacked into my "centre left field" bunker:

A bit of a cliff hanger for that asset!

On the back left, my "Hunt"ing M10 didn't get very far - I think his hunt was cancelled when he fired on the running-away unit that was near the dead HT. He'll push out around to the left further this turn...

GaJ

[GreenAsJade]

Movie 54, 0:17-0:16

My bunker that reported "penetration" last turn didn't even blink! Weird. I wonder whether a penetration in the last microsecond of a turn somehow disappears into the inter-turn wormhole?

Anyhow, this bunker is as resolute in refusing to spot the incoming infantry as the one over on the right. If that doesn't improve in a turn or too it will be really frustrating: the centre left valley that it watches over is now filling up with perfect HMG targets.

On the centre-right, I had popped a bazooka team over the road to try to sneak up towards Tame and look for a side shot on armour supporting a strike on SMI.

Unfortunately, they encountered an HT "prematurely". The encounter went OK: they did not waste their precious HEAT on the HT, and took out the gunner with their rifles instead:

... but now their cover is blown. They need to run away this turn, and start over with a new tank ambush spot.

Over on the left, things are rather interesting. Bil has established his Brummbar (which is now being reported as a Sturmpanzer!) and JgPZ on Hill 153. I have a few units in this area:

I would so like to arrange for the bazooka to get a side shot on either of those two tanks. The JgPz is not at all vulnerable at the moment - it's surrounded by inf. However, the Brummbar has come forwards ahead of the inf screen (maybe because the inf don't want to get expose to the various MGs in the valley). After looking at various options, it seems the best thing to do this turn is hide with the Bazooka, scout and HQ (all of whom do not have LOS to the Brummbar at the moment) and wait to see what it does. I have also called for smoke in front of it (from the other side of the valley).

[GreenAsJade]

The next shot is a rare sight:

... the last man of one of Bil's squads running away. Boohah!

This encounter was on "my" side of Hill 172 - I had spotted these guys along side the HT that I knocked out two turns about, and pushed the M10 out wide of them to get a free shot at them.

Oh - my 4th Tank Crew are _still_ alive! The HT that they wounded ran away! They are starting to think about going hunting!

My plan to ambush Bil's forward troops in Tame from the bunker was not favoured by the fortunes. They popped out, but got taken down by fire from further back in Tame before they could do any damage.

Last thing to mention: by the sound of it, it seems that the PzIVh from near my bunker in Tame when wizzing back over to the centre right. I have no idea what that is about!

GaJ

[John Kettler]

GreenAsJade,

Some of your stuff seems straight out of the old TV show "Combat." Little John with his BAR (firing from the side) vs the German armored car (U.S. halftrack in German markings), but you evidently don't need the rifle grenade to get the job done. The narrator on the infantry weapon film would be heard excitedly saying of this unexpected improvisation "Now, that's using the old noggin. Save that bazooka rocket for an enemy tank or self-propelled gun!"

I don't understand why your bunkers seem so accursed. With so many targets, what about area firing? At this stage, ammo conservation would seem a distant priority, what with Bil breaking out more and more toys to smash yours. Any chance you could drop some mortar fire in that area to excite the occupants, slow down the attack and maybe get some real Spots out of the deal?

Regards,

John Kettler

[GreenAsJade]

I've been doing some area firing. On the left, the valley is so wide open that its pretty much a long shot to intersect a target (interestingly, last turn one of Bil's squads ran _under_ the area fire directed at them, benefiting from approaching on the downward slope! On the right, near Tame, maybe I should have done more: I was slow to give up on the idea that the bunker would spot a good target!

GaJ