Battlefront.com Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 My test was an orchard (one tree in the center of each tile) on dirt vs dense forest (3 trees per tile) on heavy forest terrain. The results were that concealment/cover was about the same. My other experiments indicated that terrain tile type had no effect if there were trees of any kind on the tile. It also appears that it doesn't matter how many trees you have on each tile: the effect on concealment/cover is the same. The only workaround is to spread the trees out so that some percentage of the tiles contain no trees. I don't believe that one tree centered on a dirt tile should provide the same level of concealment/cover as multiple trees scattered on a heavy forest tile. But I'm not sure I'm winning any converts to this view. Remember that unit placement within the context of the map as a whole is CRITICALLY important. If you position a dozen men at the edge of my field I will likely have no better or worse chance of seeing them than if there were 1, 2, or 3 trees. Put the same dozen men 24m further into the forest and 1, 2, or 3 trees could make the difference between a possibility of seeing them or none at all. Steve 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 The game engine only considers one of the terrain features (presumably the strongest one) and ignores the others. Just because you say it's that way doesn't make it so You're 100% wrong here. The cover and concealment factors are a mix of all terrain types for a particular Action Spot. That's a fact. If your tests are leading you to think otherwise then there's something about those tests you aren't taking into consideration. As I said, I understand people are OK with the way it works. My conclusion is that the choice of foliage is solely cosmetic. It doesn't make any difference tactically. That isn't what I expected, so I thought there might be a bug involved. Again, this is incorrect. Steve 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dieseltaylor Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 I think there is a problem here but possibly not what it seems. : ) How big is an average Normandy field, and how big is an apple orchard? Off-hand from the various aerial photos I have seen the big orchards are small dozens, though most are a probably under 2 dozen which would make sense if you grew apples to make your cider for the following year. If a farm grew more it would probably just have more orchards rather than bigger. As to visibility the idea of kneeling or ducking down to look under the canopy seems very likely behaviour so 40 metres before non-see for infantry would seem strange. Mixed woods, as opposed to pine forests can be very difficult to see through as you can have bushes, hollies, branbles which allowing for some undulations makes them tricky places to be sure about anything. Ike in an orchard - with good visibility down the aisles, apple tree to the left and possibly bocage to the right does not actually prove much - though always nice for to see more information on WW2 terrain. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonS Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 ... would make sense if you grew apples to make your cider for the following year. If a farm grew more it would probably just have more orchards rather than bigger. While doing some, ah, research recently I discovered that there are over two hundred varieties of apples grown in Normandy/Calvados - most of them inedible :eek: 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanir Ausf B Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 Blah, nevermind. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonS Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 Ike in an orchard - with good visibility down the aisles, apple tree to the left and possibly bocage to the right does not actually prove much - though always nice for to see more information on WW2 terrain. Sure, although it does illustrate a few points, including; if you were in any way elevated and looking for someone in the orchard that was trying to remain unseen you'd have the devils own job seeing them. Also; visibility in this particular Norman orchard is at least on a par with that particular bit of the Huertegen, and actually it's considerably worse. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonS Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 I can't see 40 meters, but Ike isn't kneeling or ducking down. Yeah, he does have a big head. Trying to see 40m past it is worse than sitting behind someone with a 'fro at the cinema. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanir Ausf B Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 Nah, keep it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dieseltaylor Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 Adams' Pearmain Aldwick Beauty• Alexander Alfriston Allen's Everlasting Allington Pippin American Golden Russet• American Summer Pearmain• Ananas Reinette• Annie Elizabeth Annual Sweetening Antonovka• Api Étoilé• Api Noir Ard Cairn Russet Aromatic Russet Arthur Turner Arthur W. Barnes Ashdown Seedling• Ashmead´s Kernel Autumn Pearmain Baker's Delicious Ball's Pippin• Bamfairs Barnack Beauty Bascombe Mystery• Baumann's Reinette• Baxter´s Pearmain Bazeley Beachamwell Beauty Of Bath Beauty Of Bedford Beauty Of Hants Beauty Of Kent Beckley Red(Bew) Beckley Red(Holcroft) Bédan-Des-Parts• Bedfordshire Foundling Beisly Codling Belledge Pippin• Belvoir Seedling• Benwell's Large• Bernwode Crab Bess Pool Black Gilliflower Black Prince Blenheim Orange Bloody Ploughman Blue Pearmain Bohnapfel• Bossom• Boston Russet Brabant Bellefleur• Braddick Nonpareil Bradley's Beauty Bramley's Seedling Breedon Pippin• Brown Kenting• Brownlees´ Russet Brown's Pippin• Buckinghamshire Sheep's Nose Bulmer's Norman Bundy's Ringwood Red Burr Knot Calville Blanche D´Hiver• Cambridge Pippin Cambusnethan Pippin• Capper's Pearmain• Carlisle Codlin• Caroline• Catshead Caudal Market• Cellini• Charles Ross Cherry Pearmain• Chisel Jersey• Chivers Delight Christmas Pearmain Cissy• Claygate Pearmain Cockle Pippin Cockpit Coeur De Boeuf Coker Seedling Cole Colonel Vaughan• Compton Wynyates• Corner Cottage• Cornish Aromatic Cornish Gillyflower Corry's Wonder• Cottenham Seedling Cottered Apple• Court Of Wick Court Pendu Plat Cox's Orange Pippin Cox's Pomona Crawley Beauty Cremiere• Crow Egg• Dabinett D´Arcy Spice Decio Deddington Golden Devon Crimson Queen• Devonshire Quarrenden Dirleton Red Discovery Downton Pippin• Dr Hogg Duchess Of Oldenburg Duchess's Favourite• Duck's Bill• Duke of Devonshire Dumelow's Seedling Dunn's Seedling• Easter Orange Edward V11 Eggleton Styre Egremont Russet Eldon Pippin Ellison´s Orange Emneth Early English Codlin English Greening• Esopus Spitzenburg• Eynsham Challenger• Eynsham Dumpling• Fallbarrow Favourite• Fameuse• Fearn´s Pippin Feltham Beauty Fenouillet Gris Fenouillet Rouge First and Last• Flower of the Town• Forge Forty Shilling• Foulden Pearmain• Foulkes' Foremost• Foxwhelp French Crab Gascoyne´s Scarlet Genet Moyle George Carpenter George Cave George Neal George Neilson Gilliflower• Gipsy King• Gladstone Gloria Mundi Gold Medal• Golden Bittersweet• Golden Harvey Golden Knob• Golden Noble Golden Pippin Golden Reinette Golden Russet Golden Spire Gooseberry• Grand Duke Constantine Grange's Pearmain• Granny Shan• Gravenstein Greasy Jack• Green Custard• Grenadier Grey Pippin Grime's Golden• Hambledon Deux Ans Hanwell Souring Hargreaves' Greensweet• Harvest Lemon• Harvey Hawthornden• Helmsley Market Apple• Herefordshire Beefing Herring's Pippin Heusgen´s Golden Reinette• Hitchin Pippin Hoary Morning Holland Pippin• Hollandbury• Holly• Hormead Pearmain Horsham Russet• Howgate Wonder Hubbard's Pearmain• Iffley Beefing• Iffley Codlin• Irish Peach Islay Pippin James Grieve Jennifer• Jennifer Wastie• Joaneting John Standish• Joybells• Kandil Sinap Kane's Seedling• Keeling Apple Kentish Fillbasket Kerry Pippin Keswick Codlin Kew Pippin Kidd's Orange Red King Charles Pearmain King Harry King Of The Pippins King Of Tompkins County• King´s Acre Pippin• Kingsbury Priory Apple• Kingston Black Knobby Russet Knotted Kernel Korobovka• Lady Henniker• Lady Sudeley Lady's Delight• Lady's Finger Of Hereford Lady's Finger Of Lancaster Lady's Finger Of Offaly• Lamb Abbey Pearmain• Lancashire Pippin• Lane´s Prince Albert Langleigh Delight Langley Pippin Laxton's Epicure Laxton's Exquisite• Laxton's Fortune Laxton's Royalty• Laxton's Superb Leathercoat Russet Lemon Pippin Lemon Square• Les Paysans Potentate• Lewis's Incomparable• London Pippin Long Reinette Longstart• Lord Burghley Lord Derby Lord Hindlip• Lord Lambourne Lucombe's Pine Mabbott's Pearmain• Maclean's Favourite• Madeleine• Madresfield Court• Maid Of Kent Maiden's Blush• Maltster Mank's Codlin• Mannington´s Pearmain• Margaret Margil Marriage Maker Mary Morgan• May Queen Meadfoot Wonder• Mela Carla Melon Mère De Ménage Miller´s Seedling Milton Wonder Minshull Crab Monarch Morgan Sweet Moses Tree Mother Nanny• New Rock Pippin Newton Wonder Newtown Pippin• Nine Square• Nonpareil Nonsuch Park• Norfolk Beauty Norfolk Beefing Norfolk Coleman• Norfolk Royal Northern Greening• Nottingham Pippin• Nutmeg Pippin Oaken Pin• Old Fred• Old Pearmain Onibury Pippin• Ontario Orange Orange Goff• Orléans Reinette Oslin Oxford Beauty• Oxford Conquest• Oxford Hoard• Oxford Sunrise• Oxford Yeoman• Padley's Pippin Painted Summer Pippin Parker's Pippin• Peacemaker Pear Apple• Peasgood's Nonsuch Peggy's Pride• Pigeon de Jerusalem• Pig´s Nose Pippin Pine Golden Pippin Pitmaston Pine Apple Pitmaston Russet Nonpareil Pitstone Pippin• Pomeroy of Herefordshire Pomeroy of Somerset Poor Man's Profit Porter• Powell's Russet Prinzenapfel• Profit Puckrupp Pippin• Queen Queen Caroline• Queen Cox Radford Beauty Rambour Franc• Rank Thorn Rathe Ripe• Red Army• Red Balsam Red Claygate• Red Cluster• Red Ellison Red Ingestrie Red Jersey• Red Siberian Redstart• Redstreak Reinette Clochard• Reinette Du Canada• Reinette Rouge Étoilée Reverend W. Wilks Ribston Pippin Rivers' Early Peach• Rivers' Nonsuch• Ronalds' Gooseberry Pippin Rosemary Russet Roundway Magnum Bonum Royal Jersey Royal Wilding Rymer Saint Albans Pippin Saint Cecilia Saint Edmund´s Pippin Saint Magdalen• Saltcote Pippin Sam Young• Sandling• Sanspareil Scarlet Crofton• Scarlet Nonpareil Scotch Bridget• Scotch Dumpling• Sergeant Peggy• Sharlston Pippin Sheep's Nose• Shustoke Apple Silvercup• Sir Isaac Newton´s Tree Skyrme's Kernel Smart's Prince Arthur• Sops In Wine• Stanford Seedling• Stibbert• Stirling Castle Stoke Edith Pippin• Stone Pippin• Striped Beefing Studley Crab Sturmer Pippin• Sugar Loaf Pippin Summer Golden Pippin• Summer Pearmain Summer Strawberry Sunset Suntan Sussex Mother Sweet Coppin Sweet Lading• Sykehouse Russet Taylor's Favourite• Teign Harvey Ten Commandments• Téton de Demoiselle• Thomas Rivers• Thorpe's Peach Tillington Court• Tinsley Quince• Tom Putt Tower Of Glamis Tun Apple Tupstones• Tydeman's Early Worcester Tydeman's Late Orange Underwood Pippin Upton Pyne• Venus Pippin• Violette Voyager Wadhurst Pippin• Wagener• Wardington Seedling• Warner´s King Wax Apple• Welford Park Nonsuch Wheaten Loaves• Wheeler's Russet White Joaneting White Melrose White Transparent• White Winter Pearmain• William Crump• Winston• Winter Banana• Winter Colman Winter Greening Winter Majetin• Winter Pearmain Winter Queening Wolvercote Pippin• Woolbrook Russet Worcester Pearmain Wormsley Pippin• Wotton Costard - I resist the temptation Wyken Pippin Yellow Bellflower• Yellow Ingestrie Yorkshire Greening• Young's Pinello• Zabergäu Renette • Some Of the English types. Actually I look at the list and think - if I were to invent some I could never make up such a collection. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
costard Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 ... Wotton Costard - I resist the temptation Some Of the English types. Actually I look at the list and think - if I were to invent some I could never make up such a collection. Bites back and gives you a severe case of the runs. Not a pleasant experience. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stoex Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 I'll take a pound of 'Ten Commandments' and two pounds of 'Minshull Crab', please. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigduke6 Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 Well, there are orchards and there are orchards. Is this the low-tech "walk in and pick it" type of orchard for a family's sustenance farming? If yes then expect low branches so owners have to use ladders at minimum. That's branches going close to the ground and excellent concealment as long as there are leaves around. Especially if said family is short-handed or lazy, in which case then you also have grass and even underbrush between the trees. Is this a medium-tech orchard where the fruit is picked and then sent and sold somewhere? Then you might get pruning to keep the branches off the ground and in general minimal large branches and lots of minor ones, more clearing between the trees, proper paths to get a tractor or horse cart in there, and so on. Or is this a high tech orchard where fruit is the business and they bring in whatever machines they can to assist in picking and spraying and so on? But for sure, the tech level in 1944 is going to be lower than today, and in general there was more sustenance farming then than now. As to forests, it's all about underbrush and in turn the age of the forest and whether or not any one is bothering to clear out the underbrush. I suspect in France in 1944, that was not a big priority, forest maintenance is one of those things that gets neglected in Europe when there is a war. And if trees won't grow very much in a year or two of war, that kind of time can convert a nice neat well-tended forest into a real mess, just because no one is going in there cleaning out the new growth. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockinHarry Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 Also; visibility in this particular Norman orchard is at least on a par with that particular bit of the Huertegen, and actually it's considerably worse. Even the hurtgen forest does not have or had uniform looks. There´s older fir trees with branches starting couple of meters high and visibility is comparatively good (CMN Tree E). Then there´s younger ones with branches down to the floor and you can hardly see beyond the next tree. Then there´s mixed age fir tree areas, but visibility is mostly determined by younger ones. Then there´s the smashed pine tree forests that we oftenly see in wartime pics. Visibility in them is almost solely determined by all the debris, branches and tree crowns lying on the ground. There´s also a couple of pics from shortly after the war, where huge forest fires had devastated the area furtherly, with just the tree trunks sticking out of the ground with all debris and underbrush completely burned away. The hurtgen also has/had a number of areas with mixed type forests or pure deciduous trees. Would be nice to have younger/smaller trees of every kind added to CMN as well. Btw, can you identify the 5 CMN trees? Uploaded with ImageShack.us 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sburke Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 I don't know, but when do we get to discussing the shrubbery? Yes, shrubberies are my trade. I am a shrubber. My name is Roger the Shrubber. I arrange, design, and sell shrubberies. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magpie_Oz Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 A = Poinciana B = Black Bean C = Box Gum D = Wattle E = Norfolk Island Pine I like the lupins particularly 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 Not really the tidy rows and neatly pruned trees we are used to, but more a collection of fruit trees in a meadow with no real mechanical tools available to keep the grass down or the trees cut back, and in June/Aug all would be in full leaf. I don't know what the common practice was in Normandy, especially during wartime, but in a lot of places the farmers would put their livestock into the orchards during the seasons of maximum grass growth. They would keep the grass neatly trimmed down, no mechanization required. They would also tend to nibble the leaves off the trees below a certain height. In other words, sight lines through such an orchard could be pretty good, not much worse than an open field in some cases, depending on how closely the trees were planted. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 While doing some, ah, research recently I discovered that there are over two hundred varieties of apples grown in Normandy/Calvados - most of them inedible :eek: But I bet you could make vinegar from them all. And vinegar is very important for preserving foods when you don't have a lot of refrigeration. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akd Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 Nice pic of an orchard in Calvados off the PhotosNormandie Flickr stream: http://www.flickr.com/photos/photosnormandie/2524508971/ 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dieseltaylor Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 Is this the low-tech "walk in and pick it" type of orchard for a family's sustenance farming? If yes then expect low branches so owners have to use ladders at minimum. That's branches going close to the ground and excellent concealment as long as there are leaves around. Especially if said family is short-handed or lazy, in which case then you also have grass and even underbrush between the trees. I am afraid branches low to the ground is not the way I would expect any decent apple orchard to be, I don't frquent old orchards too many times a year but ggod air flow and pruning back are considerations. So nothing lower than 6ft with the fully grown fruit on - and obviously higher earlier in the season. This is a bit of a stunner. Before you look which country produces the most apples http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tarquelne Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 But I bet you could make vinegar from them all. And vinegar is very important for preserving foods when you don't have a lot of refrigeration. No: brandy and cider. They're very important when you have to eat food that isn't preserved well because you used all the apples to make brandy and cider. (And the brandies often use apples of many, many varieties.) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akd Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 Based on the above photo, I further refined my test to compare tree density effects independent of terrain type. Spotter is an FO team 400-450m away, elevated 2m above the tabletop terrain. Targets are three Fusilier companies, one in a 3-tree (Tree D) every tile forest on "grass" tiles, one on "grass" tiles only and one in orchard (Tree D) with open space between rows on "grass" tiles. Typical outcome: Both tree density and terrain type matter. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slysniper Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 All these years on the forum, now I see we have orchard grogs, what is next??? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveP Posted July 12, 2011 Author Share Posted July 12, 2011 Just because you say it's that way doesn't make it so You're 100% wrong here. The cover and concealment factors are a mix of all terrain types for a particular Action Spot. That's a fact. If your tests are leading you to think otherwise then there's something about those tests you aren't taking into consideration. Well, it's a simple test. Anyone can do it. I had to do it to figure out how to get a bocage scenario to work (which it wasn't). Create an orchard (single trees in grid formation, one on each tile), on dirt tiles, flat ground of 100m by 50m, for example. Put a German MG in the orchard near one end. Have an American inf squad advance thru that orchard from the other end. At what point does the MG spot them and start firing? I expected it to be right away. It was not until the squad got to within about 40m (or five trees away). I have also seen this happen in scenarios created by others, which made me curious enough to run this test. Take the same area, and make the tiles heavy forest and use high density trees and run the same test. I found that the results were roughly the same. I also got the same results for any other combination of tiles and tree option. Since I found no way to get this right for my scenario map, I am either going to not use orchards, or else do the very widely spaced orchard idea. But I still think I should not have gotten the same results every time I tried different combinations. If other people are able to create maps which don't have this problem(?) then more power to them. I can't figure out how to do it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pak40 Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 Since I found no way to get this right for my scenario map, I am either going to not use orchards, or else do the very widely spaced orchard idea. But I still think I should not have gotten the same results every time I tried different combinations. If other people are able to create maps which don't have this problem(?) then more power to them. I can't figure out how to do it. SteveP, this is all about the effect you want an "orchard" to have and nothing to do with how CMN models line of sight. You obviously want the orchard to have a fair degree of visibility. In order to achieve this you're going to have to make your trees more sparse. To be quite honest, if you were an owner of an apple orchard and you planted your trees only 8m meters apart you'd probably run yourself out of business. It provides no accessibility to harvest the fruit and the trees would end up competing for light and room to grow. The photo that akd has posted clearly shows gap rows that are at least 8m in width. I suggest you do the same. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveP Posted July 12, 2011 Author Share Posted July 12, 2011 SteveP, this is all about the effect you want an "orchard" to have and nothing to do with how CMN models line of sight. You obviously want the orchard to have a fair degree of visibility. In order to achieve this you're going to have to make your trees more sparse. To be quite honest, if you were an owner of an apple orchard and you planted your trees only 8m meters apart you'd probably run yourself out of business. It provides no accessibility to harvest the fruit and the trees would end up competing for light and room to grow. The photo that akd has posted clearly shows gap rows that are at least 8m in width. I suggest you do the same. You are right that I ended up doing the test because of what I wanted to achieve in the scenario. Apparently the test I did isn't interesting because: 1. Normandy doesn't have dirt under their orchard trees, so who cares? 2. It doesn't matter what the mg gunner can or can't see thru the lines of apple tree trunks sitting on dirt, because the trees branches up above his head have lots of foliage. 3. There are workarounds I can use, so who cares? 4. BFC says I can't possibly have seen what I saw in doing my tests, so I must be doing something wrong. I would still like to see, on one of my scenario maps, dense forest on heavy forest terrain having a bigger impact on concealment/cover than orchard trees on dirt. Maybe I will some day (perhaps when I figure out what I am doing wrong). 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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