Why no repeats?

[MG TOW]

I say again: why no repeat...over.

I launched a heavy short mortar barrage on a target. Waited 5 minutes for it to be spotted and on target. The target was still intact and called it in again. Had to wait 5 minutes again for the second barrage? Considering the mortar is already registered shouldn't this be less than a minute now?

Seriously, no other game models artillery support as good as CMBN so I am just saying if it is not in there then maybe a repeat fire mission option could be added.

[Broadsword56]

Is it because the tubes have to cool down?

[xian]

I think that it should be possible to alter the duration and firing rate of a barrage whilst in effect (with a reasonable time delay). If you are allowed to cancel and adjust the target of a barrage with little penalty then you should be able to to ask for duration and firing rate adjustments too.

Nes't Pas?

[gunnulf]

It wont be that the tubes need to cool down. On maximum rate you can burn through your entire stock in minutes.

I think 'repeat' command is a very good call. Until they fire at another target it should be a valid option for the same spotter.

Also be good to see FPF option (final protective fire) - a sort of super TRP. This was fire brought down right in front of a (or even on top off) a unit that was about to be/was being overrun. Would have to be limited/expensive, and maybe only deployed on an objective, and perhaps only dedicated btln/regimental mortars/guns. But should be very quick, like 1/2 minutes. By doctrine guns train on the FPF when they are not firing at anything else so as to be in action almosts intantly following the call to fire FPF.

However in the meantime REPEAT would be great

[Broadsword56]

OK then, +1 for a REPEAT ability.

[Peregrine]

If you can have repeat calls why would anyone ever use anything but quick strikes?

Drop a few rounds, have a look, repeat, then repeat then repeat until you are happy with the result. Super gamey especially with the larger calibre regimental and navy assets.

In reality if you needed a repeat and still had the "rounds" (there are other threads describing how you actually have time with a battery) available you probably should have called a heavier barrage to start with.

[Michael Emrys]

Super gamey especially with the larger calibre regimental and navy assets.

I think a distinction could be made between assets that were directly under command of the organization making the request (i.e., in the same company) and assets of a more general availability. That is, assets belonging to division and up would be subject to calls from other units or involved in other fire plans and not always available for a repeat. But the further down the chain of command the attachments go, the more likely they are to be immediately available.

Michael

[Wengart]

A delay command would also be nice. No reason the player shouldn't be able to push the fire time of a barrage up a few minutes/.

[Blackcat]

I say again: why no repeat...over.

I launched a heavy short mortar barrage on a target. Waited 5 minutes for it to be spotted and on target. The target was still intact and called it in again. Had to wait 5 minutes again for the second barrage? Considering the mortar is already registered shouldn't this be less than a minute now?

Seriously, no other game models artillery support as good as CMBN so I am just saying if it is not in there then maybe a repeat fire mission option could be added.

You could try it the other way round, order a long barrage and then move it or cancell it once it has done its job. In WEGO you tend to lose one turns worth of rounds, but you win on the time penalty.

[Peregrine]

You could try it the other way round, order a long barrage and then move it or cancell it once it has done its job. In WEGO you tend to lose one turns worth of rounds, but you win on the time penalty.

As he said but for this to work you will probably need to set the Mission to medium or light otherwise by the time cease fire gets through all the rounds may have fallen.

[gunnulf]

If you can have repeat calls why would anyone ever use anything but quick strikes?

Drop a few rounds, have a look, repeat, then repeat then repeat until you are happy with the result. Super gamey especially with the larger calibre regimental and navy assets.

In reality if you needed a repeat and still had the "rounds" (there are other threads describing how you actually have time with a battery) available you probably should have called a heavier barrage to start with.

not super gamey really, quite realistic. Rounds are valuable and to be conserved if possible. Calling for 12 rnds FFE then for a repeat if the target is still not neutralized/destroyed is not gamey. The firing unit and the spotter would both prefer that rather than 24 rnds in the first place. Of course its possible to call harass/light RoF & maximum maxiumum duration and cancel when like but a) that can burn through your ammo in a couple of minutes before get a chance to cease fire (http://combatmission.wikia.com/wiki/German_Artillery_Characteristics) if your spotter gets killed you might not get a chance to cease fire

End of the day Repeat is a fire mission tactic and perfectly ligitimate request. As per the original post once FFE called this would be effectively a registered TRP on that battery's map for future use.

But in game terms at least I would think once rounds complete on a mission then would not be a big deal to have a button for repeat to at least fire the last shoot again quickly until such time as that battery was otherwise tasked.

[Peregrine]

not super gamey really, quite realistic. Rounds are valuable and to be conserved if possible. Calling for 12 rnds FFE then for a repeat if the target is still not neutralized/destroyed is not gamey. The firing unit and the spotter would both prefer that rather than 24 rnds in the first place. Of course its possible to call harass/light RoF & maximum maxiumum duration and cancel when like but a) that can burn through your ammo in a couple of minutes before get a chance to cease fire (http://combatmission.wikia.com/wiki/German_Artillery_Characteristics) if your spotter gets killed you might not get a chance to cease fire

End of the day Repeat is a fire mission tactic and perfectly ligitimate request. As per the original post once FFE called this would be effectively a registered TRP on that battery's map for future use.

But in game terms at least I would think once rounds complete on a mission then would not be a big deal to have a button for repeat to at least fire the last shoot again quickly until such time as that battery was otherwise tasked.

It shouldn't be that simple. Especially blanket for arty at all levels. It is open for abuse.

Eg A situation similar to lots of the two company US campaign missions I would have at my disposal:

- a pair of 105s

- 81 mm battery

- on map 6 60mm mortars

I could look at the map in the set-up and do a quick prebarrrage on 8 different locations. On most maps that is a lot of dangerous spots that suddenly have preregistered artillery.

As soon as you have advanced enough to clear a preregistered location if LOS will allow you do another quick reshoot with the piece and you have another preregistered location.

PS If I a was spotter that was about to assault a location I wouldn't prefer arty guys to be saving rounds on my account. But as a player with a God's I view I want arty to fall quickly but not a single round more than necessary.

[Lt Belenko]

Great idea. Should be an easy fix too.

[Placebo]

Good idea for the current target, not for all previous targets as in Peregines description

[Pak40]

A couple of related issues that needs to be looked at also:

On board mortars can begin firing within 1 minute in direct fire mode. But, if you want an area or line barrage then you need a FO or leader unit next to it that can spot the same target. But, for some baffling reason, it will take 4 minutes for this barrage to fall. So, my two improvement requests would be:

1. Drastically decrease the amount of time it takes to call in an on-board mortar barrage if the spotting unit is next to the firing unit (especially if the firing unit has LOS to the target)

2. Allow on board mortars to call in their own barrages when in direct LOS of the target, using the normal artillery menu method.

[gunnulf]

It shouldn't be that simple. Especially blanket for arty at all levels. It is open for abuse.

Eg A situation similar to lots of the two company US campaign missions I would have at my disposal:

- a pair of 105s

- 81 mm battery

- on map 6 60mm mortars

I could look at the map in the set-up and do a quick prebarrrage on 8 different locations. On most maps that is a lot of dangerous spots that suddenly have preregistered artillery.

As soon as you have advanced enough to clear a preregistered location if LOS will allow you do another quick reshoot with the piece and you have another preregistered location.

PS If I a was spotter that was about to assault a location I wouldn't prefer arty guys to be saving rounds on my account. But as a player with a God's I view I want arty to fall quickly but not a single round more than necessary.

Thats not abuse. That is registering your guns onto likely DF locations. This happens in war, both in attack and in defense. Effectively in game terms this is what is happening with the TRP prior to the battle, except instead of spending 30pts you are spending ammo. So long as you have clearance to fire you drop a few spotting rounds and record that TRP/DF for future reference. Usually really only applies to own section/battery really in WW2 terms ie. barrels in the same firing line. However what is proposed with this REPEAT command is that the same unit fires at the same target a 2nd time, provided it hasnt subsequently shifted to another target. In no way is that gamey or an abuse.

[black_prince]

I agree with gunnulf, it is not gamey. In real life, it is normal for artillery to register targets that have fire called on them. It has always struck me as unrealistic that you need to go through the whole proccess of spotting when calling fire from the same guns onto a previously engaged target. In certain cases some re-adjustment may be required, especially if large amounts of rounds have since been fired at a different target. However, this should be minimal and the exception rather than the rule.

[Rayak47]

I like it and the comment concerning on-board mortars. Seems like allowing the motars to spot and call their own fire pattern with a minimal delay would be a way to go.

[Jarink]

I find myself constantly wishing we could REPEAT as in real life. For people thinking it's 'gamey', my reply is to reiterate real life.

Instead of an instantaneous continuation, a one or two minute delay (or more, depending on the command level of the arty asset) might be a good, realistic compromise. I would also say you should only be able to REPEAT a fire mission within a minute or two of the original one ending.

[gunnulf]

If a fire mission has just completed then the firing unit should be able to fire again almost immediately that the spotter request it, + flight time for the shells obviously. The only difference might be between fire units under direct control (ie under control of the company/btln HQ). Regimental, divisional or corps assets might have some random delay on a REPEAT command to account for them being not dedicated to the battlegroup and maybe have to answer another call. That said, once the FAO has their attention and they have rounds available then in reality more than likely they would be available to fire again very quickly if they are already trained on the target.

[Peregrine]

I find myself constantly wishing we could REPEAT as in real life. For people thinking it's 'gamey', my reply is to reiterate real life.

Instead of an instantaneous continuation, a one or two minute delay (or more, depending on the command level of the arty asset) might be a good, realistic compromise. I would also say you should only be able to REPEAT a fire mission within a minute or two of the original one ending.

This is the crux. As I understand it would be uncommon especially for off-map assets for you to have unfetterred access to them anytime. Even more so the further removed from your unit the asset is. Currently you NEVER miss out using artillery from off board assets because they are busy with someone else.

I don't think it would be realistic to be able to call in higher level artillery pieces once and then in the context of the same battle which could be one and half hours later have immediate access to another barrage on the same location with minimum delay.

I am not tracking it down but I think there is a CMSF thread that describes how the CMx2 engine uses number of shells to simulate time with a battery which will better explain the flexibility of the current system.

Currently if a scenario designer believes you need help with artillery quickly you get TRPs. The idea of creating TRPs by constantly quick firing 2-4 shells seems gamey. I can understand especially with on-board stuff that is in close communication a do that again request that shouldn't have as long a delay if they haven't done anything else. But otherwise it would be open to exploitation, a cheap way of creating TRPs and an unrealistic use of WWII artillery. It would make it much more accurate and allow you to minimise shell use in a gamey fashion.

[Michael Emrys]

I don't think it would be realistic to be able to call in higher level artillery pieces once and then in the context of the same battle which could be one and half hours later have immediate access to another barrage on the same location with minimum delay.

This has already been stipulated. Check my first post in this thread. But for assets in the same company, and to a slightly lesser degree in the same battalion, that ought not to be much of a problem. Those aren't going to be called on to deliver ordnance all over the map. Somewhat the same may be true for any higher echelon assets that are dedicated to the unit in question, although I don't think that happened a great deal in the Allied armies.

Michael

[gunnulf]

Currently if a scenario designer believes you need help with artillery quickly you get TRPs. The idea of creating TRPs by constantly quick firing 2-4 shells seems gamey. I can understand especially with on-board stuff that is in close communication a do that again request that shouldn't have as long a delay if they haven't done anything else. But otherwise it would be open to exploitation, a cheap way of creating TRPs and an unrealistic use of WWII artillery. It would make it much more accurate and allow you to minimise shell use in a gamey fashion.

You do know how a TRP is created in real life don't you? Either silently by meticulous calculation it is map plotted (made easier by GPS & computers now but good hard solid maths in WW2 times) or by firing spotting rounds and registering the settings at the firing section/battery. By far the more acurate at the time would be by firing rounds. If you spend 30pts in a QB then I believe this simulates the expended rounds used to register that target. Without going into too much detail as a former mortar platoon cmdr I can tell you we would then use aiming stakes in the ground to be able to quickly allign the tubes in the right direction/elevation even at night. I am sure that 'gamey trick' goes way back past WW2. Once a target is engaged FFE another stake is added and that TRP/DF is added to the map. So really firing rounds at a target quickly multiple times is not gamey. In real life these TRPs are not arbeitrarily created by the great scenario designer in the sky, they are calculated and plotted I am prepared to accept that 60mm mortars running around the map in attack might be a bit fast and loose about registering targets for future reference, but 81mm mortar lines and above will be doing their paperwork. And that said in the context of the thread even mobile light mortars should be capable of being told to fire 6 more bombs again very without much hassle so long as they havent moved or engaged anything else. This really is a simple addition to enhance indirect fire missions. If anything its gamey NOT to be able to call Repeat quickly...

In terms of what could REPEAT i would say that in real life assets are attached to a company/battalion/battlegroup/kampfgruppe for the duration of the mission, given that they are generally 1-2 hours in duration not much would change. In game terms 60mm/81mm company level mortar would be 100% available and available to repeat at the same target. 81mm sections at btln level likely also 100% attached to a company for the mission. 120mm sometimes held at btln and sometimes at regimental level, however usually attached for the duration of a battle. Divisional level batteries of 75mm, 105mm & 150/155mm would often be attached to a btln for an attack and may or may not be 100% in support. This is where gets more difficult, however still very possible that so long as you are 'on the phone' to that battery then you have their attention especially if your spotter is an FAO and a repeat shoot would be very quick.

Anything at corps or army level i.e. 170mm plus and naval support requires an FAO anyway. Here there is much more chance that they are also available to other battlegroups. However once again if the FAO has got their attention already, has them listening at the other end of the line/radio then chances are if rounds available then a repeat command immediately after previous rounds completed would be successful. However this could be modelled randomly maybe.

[Peregrine]

My point is repeats would be open to gamey exploitation. I also don't think platoon commanders would be constantly calling for 2-4 shell drops for the sole purpose of create TRPs.

And again if you can call for repeats you will be able to absolutely maximise artillery's effectiveness by always calling for the barest of minimum of rounds with full knowledge that you will be able to repeat it shortly. If that is how the WWII armies worked in the field then this is definitely a gap.

From the scenarios I have seen sometimes you don't even have your big assets immediately available so you can't even prebarrage them. Being able to repeat barrage's would significantly simplify battles v the AI if you have arty assets.

[slysniper]

My point is repeats would be open to gamey exploitation. I also don't think platoon commanders would be constantly calling for 2-4 shell drops for the sole purpose of create TRPs.

And again if you can call for repeats you will be able to absolutely maximise artillery's effectiveness by always calling for the barest of minimum of rounds with full knowledge that you will be able to repeat it shortly. If that is how the WWII armies worked in the field then this is definitely a gap.

From the scenarios I have seen sometimes you don't even have your big assets immediately available so you can't even prebarrage them. Being able to repeat barrage's would significantly simplify battles v the AI if you have arty assets.

I think the fact is, it is not how it worked back then, and all these guys want to have arty controlled like the envision it today.

The only people that can answer what is realistic are not on this forum, that is for sure. But take just one issue. Radio's, back then, they were so flighty, when you did get communication, you made your request hoped it was clearly heard and that you might be lucky to still have communications when it was time to adjust spotting rounds. These simple things were not as realiable as today and the control on the battlefield was not designed to max. each round like we do today.

I do agree, it would be nice to be able to adjust a barrage time some, either longer or shorter. But that is because I am god, I see exactly what is being accomplished with the strike, again, in games terms, it might be best to force the estimate to stay in the game, because them troops would never know how effective the strike was until the smoke cleared, and someone would try to move up or expose themselves to the enemy.