AP granates to lethal ?

[Marc Anton]

I played the "Devil" campaign and killed several man with the 57mm AT gun which had only AP rounds during that mission. Those guns killed 2-3 groups of infantry, a few times 2-3 men at once .... with AP rounds.

Needs changing IMHO.

Greets Marc

[Thomm]

Absolutely.

Sniping with AP shells has been reported repeatedly during the last months.

Personally, I do not know what is up with that.

Best regards,

Thomm

[Gurra]

Slightly off topic:

I haven´t had the time to play the game extensively yet, perhaps 5 or 6 missions, but based on this, it seems every AP fired from a tank on another tank results in a penetration and KO. Man, I remember CMX1, the shells would sometimes be all over the place because of ricochets from failed penetrations. It was cool. But I guess it was not spot on realistic, or it would be the same in CMBN? Or do I just lack time with the game?

cheers

[George MC]

Slightly off topic:

I haven´t had the time to play the game extensively yet, perhaps 5 or 6 missions, but based on this, it seems every AP fired from a tank on another tank results in a penetration and KO. Man, I remember CMX1, the shells would sometimes be all over the place because of ricochets from failed penetrations. It was cool. But I guess it was not spot on realistic, or it would be the same in CMBN? Or do I just lack time with the game?

cheers

I've just played through Shermans firing at Panthers and several shots went winging of the turret of the Panther. Also PzIVs engaging Shermans at around 800 - 900m - again several shots bounced of the Shermans turret - tohers penetrated. In some of the in-game scenarios at close range the chances of a hit doing damage are greatly increased. FYI there are several threads that debate this whole issue in great detail - worth trawling through. You might have to hunt but within there are lot's of interesting wee side roads and facts.

http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=97176

http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=96518&highlight=armour

http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=97353&highlight=armour

[daft]

Slightly off topic:

I haven´t had the time to play the game extensively yet, perhaps 5 or 6 missions, but based on this, it seems every AP fired from a tank on another tank results in a penetration and KO. Man, I remember CMX1, the shells would sometimes be all over the place because of ricochets from failed penetrations. It was cool. But I guess it was not spot on realistic, or it would be the same in CMBN? Or do I just lack time with the game?

cheers

I've had some non-instant hits with armour spalling and ricochets so it definitely does happen. I like the duels I've seen between Sherman's and Mark IV's so far in terms of feel and intensity.

[YankeeDog]

Slightly off topic:

I haven´t had the time to play the game extensively yet, perhaps 5 or 6 missions, but based on this, it seems every AP fired from a tank on another tank results in a penetration and KO. Man, I remember CMX1, the shells would sometimes be all over the place because of ricochets from failed penetrations. It was cool. But I guess it was not spot on realistic, or it would be the same in CMBN? Or do I just lack time with the game?

cheers

Give it some time. Non-killing hits happen quite often. In fact, if you browse through other threads, you'll find some people complaining that Shermans can often shrug off quite a few PaK40 hits without taking catastrophic damage.

With more game time, I'm sure the Law of Averages will come into play for you.

[Thomm]

I haven´t had the time to play the game extensively yet, perhaps 5 or 6 missions, but based on this, it seems every AP fired from a tank on another tank results in a penetration and KO. Man, I remember CMX1, the shells would sometimes be all over the place because of ricochets from failed penetrations. It was cool. But I guess it was not spot on realistic, or it would be the same in CMBN? Or do I just lack time with the game?

There is a firing range map in the Devon training grounds campaign where your Sherman tanks get to fire at a defenseless Panther. You can bounce off rounds of the front of the Panther until the Shermans run out of ammo. Exactly what you seem to look for.

Best regards,

Thomm

[Bastables]

I've had Sherman's bouncing shells off of StuG's and PIV front hulls at just over 200m.

[Gurra]

There is a firing range map in the Devon training grounds campaign where your Sherman tanks get to fire at a defenseless Panther. You can bounce off rounds of the front of the Panther until the Shermans run out of ammo. Exactly what you seem to look for.

Yes, I have to have ricochets. Or I must die.

Seriously, I forgot the shooting range, which comes back to me now. I was just so caught up in all this close quarter bocace fighting that it tricked into making wrong conclusions. Longing for some tense long range missions then.

[gunnergoz]

Try some of the scenarios featuring the M5 light tank and/or M8 scout car, both with 37mm peashooters. On average they have to get about 2-3 penetrating hits on a German armored car before they knock it out. Not ricochets, penetrations. So not every AP penetration is a killing one.

[Baneman]

Try some of the scenarios featuring the M5 light tank and/or M8 scout car, both with 37mm peashooters. On average they have to get about 2-3 penetrating hits on a German armored car before they knock it out. Not ricochets, penetrations. So not every AP penetration is a killing one.

No, in accordance with the Murphy's Law, your penetrating hits are non-lethal 2 out of 3. Your enemy's always kill

[GI Adelscott]

I played the "Devil" campaign and killed several man with the 57mm AT gun which had only AP rounds during that mission. Those guns killed 2-3 groups of infantry, a few times 2-3 men at once .... with AP rounds.

Back to the subjet of the thread. It's supposed that AP rounds haven't any blast power, have they?

[Childress]

Back to the subjet of the thread. It's supposed that AP rounds haven't any blast power, have they?

Minimal, one supposes. Maybe shrapnel effects if the target is in a building.

[Thomm]

Back to the subjet of the thread. It's supposed that AP rounds haven't any blast power, have they?

They do not need to, because the guns target soldiers individually. And they hit. Being hit by an AP round is deadly in the game, as it should be. But the part where the guns are used against individuals as oversized sniper rifles is causing concern.

Best regards,

Thomm

[YankeeDog]

Back to the subjet of the thread. It's supposed that AP rounds haven't any blast power, have they?

Careful; you need to specify what kind of AP round you're talking about.

A majority of the AP rounds in CMBN are "AP Shell", which have an HE "burster" charge designed to detonate after penetration and increase damage inside the AFV. Used against infantry, these types of rounds certainly would have at least some "blast effect", though generally far less than the HE Shell fired from the same weapon. American 75mm & 76mm APBC (Sherman), and most types of German 75mm & 88mm AP are "AP Shell".

Some AT weapons in the game fire "AP Shot", though, which is a solid round with no HE burster. U.S. 57mm AT gun is one example. These should have no "blast effect". As such, it should be very difficult for U.S. 57mm AT guns to cause much in the way of infantry casualties and/or suppression; it's basically a very large rifle. One 57mm AT Shot round taking out 2-3 infantry should definitely be very unusual. If this is happening regularly, it's something that should be looked at.

In certain circumstances, and AP shot round might be more dangerous to infantry, such as if the infantry is hiding behind a stone wall. In this case, AP shot hitting the stone wall would probably shatter the stone and create a lot of dangerous secondary projectiles. But situations like this are definitely the exception.

[Pvt. Ryan]

I've noticed several instances where a tank fires its main gun at a single soldier, the round hits and kills the soldier, then continues on for some distance until it finally hits the ground and explodes. Shouldn't the round be impacting the ground where the soldier is?

[YankeeDog]

I've noticed several instances where a tank fires its main gun at a single soldier, the round hits and kills the soldier, then continues on for some distance until it finally hits the ground and explodes. Shouldn't the round be impacting the ground where the soldier is?

Depends. CMBN literally tracks the ballistic path. So if the round passes through the soldier, rather than impacting the ground near him, then this is what happens.

Now, if you're asking whether tank gunners are deliberately aiming for the center of mass of an individual soldier when using HE from the main gun, I don't know.... if they are, this would definitely be wrong, but I haven't seen compelling evidence to suggest that this is the case. When guns fire HE, it seems to usually impact the ground around a unit (or nearby vertical surfaces like walls, if applicable). Occasionally, you get a round that flies long, and even more occasionally, a long round will hit a soldier mid-flight. But this is not something I've seen happen often enough to suggest it's any more than a random fluke.

[Reaver]

Depends on the type of round, calibre and velocity/range.

You can find that larger calibre explosive rounds may pass directly though a human target without detonating. The human body may not provide enough resistance to set off the main charge of the round.

Could also be an AP Shot (solid) round or APDS (which I know are not in the game yet) which do not detonate on contact with the target but use KE to punch through armour.

It isn't pretty either way.

[Pvt. Ryan]

Occasionally, you get a round that flies long, and even more occasionally, a long round will hit a soldier mid-flight. But this is not something I've seen happen often enough to suggest it's any more than a random fluke.

I think this is what I am seeing. It doesn't happen a lot, but it happens often enough that I have noticed it.

[Erwin.Rommel]

This problem exists in CMSF too.I suppose in the game,the gunner just aim at a single soldier of the target unit when the round(AP or HE) accurately hit the the targeted soldier but not the nearby ground,this issue appeared

[Bastables]

Minimal, one supposes. Maybe shrapnel effects if the target is in a building.

The US 6pdr had AP shells which would have an explosive filler. They would have had the Ap shot (solid) from British supplies. The British also modified ammunition from american guns when they used them, the 7,5cm ap shells for Sherman had their HE charges removed and where used as AP shot.

The AP HE charges are designed to explode after penetration or explode if their is a partial penetration, so they should not explode after incredibly hitting a person.

[gunnergoz]

I am playing Huzzar and watched an M8 Greyhound kill off 5 suicidal German spahwagen crew dismounts who charged them (individually, one at a time, believe it or not)...they picked each one off with the 37mm gun and all but one case the 37mm round hit them square on, killed them and kept on going. Only in one case where a man was crawling towards the M8 did they fire HE and get an explosion that killed the target.

Question: does the game model keeping a ready round in the breech or does the crew not run around with a loaded gun and loads it fresh for each new target? I know that tankers routinely carry a ready round in the breech and for Americans in this time frame it was HE (IIRC).

[YankeeDog]

The US 6pdr had AP shells which would have an explosive filler. They would have had the Ap shot (solid) from British supplies. The British also modified ammunition from american guns when they used them, the 7,5cm ap shells for Sherman had their HE charges removed and where used as AP shot.

The AP HE charges are designed to explode after penetration or explode if their is a partial penetration, so they should not explode after incredibly hitting a person.

Are you sure? My recollection is that the Americans simply copied the British AP Shot round, and never developed an AP Shell round for the 57mm. I do know that the U.S. was manufacturing 57mm AP ammo of some type by mid-1943.

Regardless of whether it was AP Shot or AP Shell, I am certain that only the AP round was available to U.S. 57mm crews through the first half of 1944. They eventually got 57mm HE for use against infantry, but not until after the Normandy campaign. As I recall, the Brits did supply an HE shell for their 6-pounder crews by Normandy, and I seem to recall that a few American units did manage to scrounge 57mm HE from the British supply chain. But in any event, 57mm HE was not officially supplied to U.S. units until late 1944.

Edit to add: Hmmm... found a partial answer myself. According to Hogg, the U.S. Manufactured both M70 solid AP shot and M86 APC AP shell for the 57mm. Can't find the availability dates for either, though. Based on the numbers, I would presume the M70 was available first, though.

[Bastables]

Are you sure? My recollection is that the Americans simply copied the British AP Shot round, and never developed an AP Shell round for the 57mm. I do know that the U.S. was manufacturing 57mm AP ammo of some type by mid-1943.

Regardless of whether it was AP Shot or AP Shell, I am certain that only the AP round was available to U.S. 57mm crews through the first half of 1944. They eventually got 57mm HE for use against infantry, but not until after the Normandy campaign. As I recall, the Brits did supply an HE shell for their 6-pounder crews by Normandy, and I seem to recall that a few American units did manage to scrounge 57mm HE from the British supply chain. But in any event, 57mm HE was not officially supplied to U.S. units until late 1944.

Yeah they had a redesignated Commonwealth AP shot and their own APC with a 34g burster charge. IIRC they used the same explosive as the navy for it's AP shells, dullumite or domolmite, along those lines.

yup http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordnance_QF_6_pounder#Ammunition

dunnite apparently M86 APCBC.

[YankeeDog]

So I guess the question then becomes, which was more common in Normandy for U.S. 57mm crews, the M70 AP Shot, or the M86 AP Shell...