Childress Posted May 29, 2011 Share Posted May 29, 2011 My brave boys have loomed over the surviving remnant of a machine gun nest for five turns. Isn't he- eventually- supposed to turn into a white flag and disappear? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted May 29, 2011 Share Posted May 29, 2011 Needs to be on an adjacent action spot. Looks like it is, but can't tell for sure in this pic. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Childress Posted May 29, 2011 Author Share Posted May 29, 2011 The pic shows the final placement. During at least one turn they shared an action spot. Caveat: 'I think'. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbd1963 Posted May 29, 2011 Share Posted May 29, 2011 I recognize that spot -- Devil's Descent 2nd battle. I had the same problem with those guys. I don't think they finished surrendering before I finished that battle, actually. Held up a unit over there babysitting them. It did not affect the outcome of the battle, however. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Speedy Posted May 29, 2011 Share Posted May 29, 2011 Are you sure he is all that is left of the unit? From my experience a unit member wont surrender if there are still active troops from that unit somewhere. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agua Posted May 29, 2011 Share Posted May 29, 2011 See if ordering your troops to fire on him will prompt it. That happened in one I was playing. May have just been coincident timing. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Childress Posted May 29, 2011 Author Share Posted May 29, 2011 If memory serves, there were three MGers who surrendered. On the following turn a beserker Germ popped out from the adjacent building, pistol blazing, and rescued two of them. Personally, I'd prefer sitting out he war in a comfy POW camp than the Western Front meat grinder from '44 on. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vincere Posted May 29, 2011 Share Posted May 29, 2011 Needs to be on an adjacent action spot. Looks like it is, but can't tell for sure in this pic. Michael Are you sure, because I thought that I rounded up remnats of a platoon in a field by running past them? Next time you're pissed at waiting for the flag you can finish them, "sorry to late mate" style, by area targeting the action spot. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peregrine Posted May 29, 2011 Share Posted May 29, 2011 Are you sure he is all that is left of the unit? From my experience a unit member wont surrender if there are still active troops from that unit somewhere. What he said. I don't know for sure but I can remember sharing the same tile as a surrendered group for 40 mins but I did see some run off. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Col Deadmarsh Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 Needs to be on an adjacent action spot. Looks like it is, but can't tell for sure in this pic. Michael So how long do you need to be in the same action spot before the enemy disappears after throwing up their hands? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sburke Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 So how long do you need to be in the same action spot before the enemy disappears after throwing up their hands? You don't need to be in the same action spot at all to my knowledge. However you do need to make sure no other good order enemy unit is nearby. Nearby being a somewhat relative term in relationship to how close you are to the surrendering guy. As I understand it there seems to be an "influence" factor for lack of a better word. If there is a good order enemy unit close enough it seems it will give the guy hope of rescue I guess. per the 3.0 manual in CMRT which has removed some of the legacy stuff from Shock Force. Surrender Heavily shaken or panicked troops in proximity to strong enemy units may decide to throw down their weapons and attempt to surrender. Surrendering units are indicated by raising their hands. Surrendering units cannot receive any further commands. Surrendered soldiers appear as MIA (Missing in Action) on the After Action Report. After a short while (usually about 1-2 minutes), units attempting to surrender “succeed” to do so, and disappear under a white flag icon. It is possible to prevent units from surrendering, by “rescuing” them. In order to do this, you need to first clear out all nearby enemies, and move friendly units into the proximity. If successful, the surrendering units will return to their normal unsurrendered status (but will probably still be panicked). Troops will not fire on surrendering enemies, but they will fire on unsurrendered ones that may be nearby, so it is possible for surrendering troops to be hit indirectly. Note: Fanatic troops will never surrender. Doesn't exactly give precise terms, surrender appears to be a fairly fuzzy logic. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
womble Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 Surrendering is, IME, very fuzzy logic. In Childress's example, the "good order" SMGer who popped out and "rescued" 2 of the surrenderers was probably the factor that meant they didn't wave the flag sooner. It will depend, I imagine, on the base motivation level of the element, as well as how many and how effective nearby friendlies and enemies are. I get the feeling that it's variable both on whether they go "hande hoch" as well as when that status turns to a vanishing flag. It just occurred to me that (I think) the most persistent-once-surrendered element I've actually had surrender was an HQ which might have had radio C2 with an upper echelon; I bet C2 counts, so if the surrenderer has even "distant visual" C2 links they'll be less likely to surrender than if the only friendlies they can see are other mudfeet. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Canadian Cat Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 As others have said there are things going on in the background that are not clear. And part of the confusion is you do not have knowledge of where the enemy is. But there is something you *can* do to get the surrendering soldiers to really give up and dissapear - keep pressing. I have found that the surest way to make sure they complete their surrender is to forget about what support they might have and just keep moving forward toward your goals. Once you have your good order troop pass them and in position to keep moving forward they finish surrendering pretty much right away. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sburke Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 As others have said there are things going on in the background that are not clear. And part of the confusion is you do not have knowledge of where the enemy is. But there is something you *can* do to get the surrendering soldiers to really give up and dissapear - keep pressing. I have found that the surest way to make sure they complete their surrender is to forget about what support they might have and just keep moving forward toward your goals. Once you have your good order troop pass them and in position to keep moving forward they finish surrendering pretty much right away. agreed, was watching Chris on twitch playing Sacrifice for a New Religion - he noted an enemy unit surrendering and promptly paid it no more attention. They were out of the fight, that is all he cared and kept pushing forward. Good attitude. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletpoint Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 I seem to notice that surrendering enemies are more likely to succeed when I move a command unit nearby, such as a platoon leader. Not sure if it's just because the leader squad shifts the balance of forces in the area like any squad would, or if the command troops are better at taking the prisoners. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sburke Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 LOL or accepting surrender. I can still remember one of my first CMBN games watching as my men overran a German position. A couple guys were in this field surrendering and unbeknownst to me there was one German hiding behind a nearby hedgerow. Apparently he was able to convince them to rejoin the fight at which point my squad gunned them down. For a very horrifying moment I thought my men were shooting prisoners. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baneman Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 ... For a very horrifying moment I thought my men were shooting prisoners. I have seen something like that happen in CMRT. A bunch of AI Russian troops pushed my Germans out of a small village and moved past a couple of HMG survivors who threw up their hands. A T34 was parked right next to them. It sat there for almost all of a minute, then the turret slowly swung around, scragged bloke #1 with the turret coax, then swung away again and Bloke #2's surrender was accepted. I just chalked it up to "Russian Front". Was funny and horrifying at the same time. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Canadian Cat Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 Making sure their surrender is accepted is important. If your troops are naturally heading towards the surrendering troops then it is easy but be weary of by passing surrendering troops and ignoring them. Playing Monster Mash against the AI I made this mistake. The last two members of a SMG squad surrendered and I had my units turn and continue on their way only to discover a turn or so later that someone had convinced them to return to the fight. The shot up a HT gunner from behind before trying to run away. I had to hold up the attack and send some units to find them and their buddies. Oops. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
womble Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 I seem to notice that surrendering enemies are more likely to succeed when I move a command unit nearby, such as a platoon leader. Not sure if it's just because the leader squad shifts the balance of forces in the area like any squad would, or if the command troops are better at taking the prisoners. I think it's a factor that the HQ units are usually passing the surrender-candidates a little while after the pointy-end troops, so either there are more of your troops about, the surrenderers have had more time to come to the point of surrendering, or you've moved the enemy further away, or a combination of those three things. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erwin Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 IIRC in CM1 POW's could also be rescued by friendlies. But, they returned without their weapons and so could not fight. Seems like we need something similar for CM2. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
womble Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 IIRC in CM1 POW's could also be rescued by friendlies. But, they returned without their weapons and so could not fight. Seems like we need something similar for CM2. It's there, as people have alluded to: if there are friendlies near pTruppen that are inclined to surrender, they'll surrender less quickly, and if the pressure to surrender slackens off, they'll stop surrendering, come to their senses and scarper. There's no feasible way of tracking troops once they've actually had their surrender accepted (the white flag has waved); they to all intents and purposes no longer exist in the battlespace as anything other than a number of "Missing" men. Or are you suggesting that troops that have been prevented from surrendering by nearby good-order friendlies should somehow have their weapons taken off them? I think you're misunderstanding what's being abstracted: they haven't been disarmed until the white flag gets waved, so if they're saved at all, they should still have their weapons. Even if they'd got to the point of chucking their rifles out of their cover, those rifles are still readily available to pick up, if the troops they were trying to surrender to have lost interest for some (possibly lead-based) reason. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erwin Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 I was thinking that there needs to be a similar level of abstraction across the whole game. So, having some aspects very abstracted and other made "overly realistic" throws the game off-balance. I thought the CM1 system worked well in that respect. If the CM2 game is making distinctions about whether or not surrendering troops are disarmed or not, then why not allow POW's to be shot (as in real life), or why not have medics and make that a sub-game, or how about guarding POW's in rear area stockades etc etc? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonS Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 ... why not ... or why not ... or how about ... etc etc? Because that would be dumb? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
womble Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 If the CM2 game is making distinctions about whether or not surrendering troops are disarmed or not... It isn't. They aren't. Until they wave the white flag, and then they're irrelevant. And isn't it a bit rich complaining about CMx2 making some things overly realistic whilst abstracting others, when CMx1 had 1:1 armour representation and realistic per-shot armour calculations and entirely abstracted "squad firepower" numbers in a squad that was a point entity represented by the Three Stooges? The vast majority of CMx2's abstractions happen in the tiny corners where the polishing rag of direct simulation can't be yet made to reach. How many surrenders are there in a given game? Most I think I've ever had is 5. It's not worth writing a de-abstraction for that, given that it would involve being able to split off guards, and have to track the position of the prisoners and their motivation to try and escape or overcome their few actual captors, and then have the chance of them being rescued, and the subsequent unarmed pTruppen meandering aimlessly about the battlefield... I really don't understand what you're saying. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erwin Posted July 15, 2014 Share Posted July 15, 2014 My point was that there are aspects of CM2 that are very detailed and others are glossed over. So we have this detail that surrendered troops can pick up their weapons and fight again - which I think is a bit of a dumb (as JonS would say) detail. I think "when they surrender they are out of battle even if rescued" as in CM1 would be fine. Currently, it's just one more ultra detail that doesn't contribute anything to the fun of the game. If it's "realistic" then why not have the other realistic features I mentioned? I really hope that BF didn't put work into the surrender mechanism. My hope BF can focus more on making the game easier and quicker to play - eg: work on revamping the ACQUIRE system to make it more user friendly, and also selectable waypoints. Btw: I regularly have enemy surrendering in my games. Am I playing it wrong? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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