Frustrated with the camera control

[shredder]

Played the hell out of CM1 back in the day, along with it's expansions, and after a long hiatus I'm delving into CM2 and loving it, except I don't remember being this frustrated with the camera controls. I know it took awhile to get used to it when I first played CM1 and maybe that will happen again, but man, there has to be a more efficient way of getting around the map.

My question for the more proficient players out there is: What method do you use to get around the map? Do you use hotkeys? Keyboard? Mouse only? Or a combination of all those? It's the only real hangup I have about this game (apart from the lack armor only target arcs and no more command lines to show if your units are connected to HQs). I would love to hear some tips that will make my gaming more enjoyable. Thanks!

[Pak40]

The controls are basically the same as CMBO plus a few extras. The smoothest way to navigate in the new CMx2 engine is by left clicking or right clicking and dragging. I also am using the WSAD keys a little bit but they tend to stick sometimes and can be jerky. I also use the edge of screen method which is also jerky and number keys just like in the old CMx1 days.

Overall I wish they would smooth out the camera controls so that you get a soft gliding effect but I still find it easy to get around.

[GerryCMBB]

One of the things I like to click any unit and TAB to get Unit Lock. Puts you right in that location focused on the unit facing in the right direction.

Gerry

[dakuth]

Yeah, I keep forgetting about the old-school "grabbing with left-mouse button" because 100% of the games I play nowadays use WSAD for controls (whether they be camera or character.)

So I use WSAD - but as mentioned, they're not very well done. They tend to stick and have poor increments. So I use a combination of methods.

If a unit is in the vincinity of where I want to go, click the icon and hit TAB. WSAD (Q and E for rotate) and mouse-wheel zoom to narrow in.

To give them a long movement or target order, for example, I probably don't have a unit in the vincinity, so I ctrl+Mouse click, then WSAD QE to close in.

Hit "V" for a quick 180 if you need to reselect the unit again. Sometimes I'll even ctrl+mouse click and OVERSHOOT where I want to click on, then use "V". This gives me a reverse-angle view of the point of interest. This can be handy for area targeting, or getting the unit to go through a wall/hedge etc.

I also occasionally use "1" to get a unit's-eye-view of the ground. Handy for spotting potential lines of sight.

Another occasional trick is "+" and "-" keys to cycle through units. Handy for when I want to order and entire platoon. Start with the platoon HQ, give orders, hit "+" and give squad 1 an order, repeat for all squads in platoon. (I wish I could select all, give movement orders and then adjust... but anyway.) Another time to use "+" and "-" is to cycle through all units to make sure you haven't forgotten anyone.

I personally think CM:BN camera controls is one of the worst features of the game, and really could have been done better. But we work with what we are given. I think a large part of the problem was being saddled with the historical baggage of CMx1's camera controls, back when they weren't as standardised as they are today (and so made them up themselves. err. 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8 for camera position? really?)

[MikeyD]

There are popular 3rd party alternate hotkey downloads around that have dropped WSAD entirely to free up the keys to assign other commands. People who have gone mouse control are, with a bit of practice, usually very happy they went that route.

[womble]

The alternate hotkey file supplied has moved the keyboard-turning keys. Not sure where to, since I haven't needed them since I got used to the mouse turn/glide thing. TAB to view-lock is very much used, and if you troll halfway across the map to look at a LOS, and lose your unit selection, F12 will reselect it quickly, though it shifts your viewpoint almost as if you'd done + followed by TAB...

[WineCape]

Left click drag, right click drag. Yeah, it WAS a drag, in all honesty. For me it became 2nd nature after a week or so of intensive play/testing. I found the camera initially awkward as I skipped CMSF, but it's more about wiring your synapses to fire and to remember .... left click drag = lateral movement (slow = in middle screen view, fast = edges) and right click drag (left/right = swivel on axis, up/down = change height angle).

Now it becomes second nature. Plus using TAB + 1/2/3/4 to position view behind unit + camera height view. I have also used the alternative keys shortcut file in the CMBN main directory, as it's closer to shortcut keys of CMx1. But TAB Unit Lock as mentioned above, is my oft most used method to centre camera immediately where I want it, right behind a unit, especially on a 'busy' map.

[DaveyJJ]

Left click and right click drag work the best for me. Took several games to get used to it but now it feels perfectly natural and give the smoothest movement around the field of battle. TAB to lock and +/- to move through units I use a lot too.

[c3k]

Mouse control.

[GreenAsJade]

First, CMBN controls are _nothing like_ CMBO controls.

However, you do get used to it. I agree with left click drag right drag. Coming from CMx1, where the effect happens after a large push to the edge of the screen, for CMBN you have to thing _small_ mouse movements. Left-click-twitch-and-hold-for-effect is more like it.

Even better is tab-right-click-drag when you have a unit selected, because then the rotation is around something you can relate to (the unit you have locked onto) instead of that wierd floating camera postion that is "behind" what you see om the screen.

Also, for low down manipulation to look at (say) a gap in the bocage that is "on the other side of the road" from another row of bocage, the i-j-k keys in the alternate hotkeys file are useful.

That summarises what I am using now. I've become quite comfortable with it.

The only time I get vertigo now is if I use ctrl-click - the most common thing in CMx1 - and which is broken now, as I have previously reported. Hard habit to get out of!

GaJ

[sharaleo]

(slow = in middle screen view, fast = edges)

Why, oh why implement such an ridiculously antiquated system? Honestly, most people's issues with the camera would just go away with system of 1:1 mouse mapping. ie right or left click for pan or rotate and the camera moves with your mouse at a constant speed regardless of where the cursor is. This is the camera system found in, oh, I don't know, just about EVERY modern 3D game engine.

[GreenAsJade]

Funnily, earlier I reported that I don't get this "fast in the edges" behaviour at all. Does anyone? When I left click drag, it goes at the same speed no matter where on the screen I am. Or so it seems. I tried it out pretty carefully...

GaJ

[sharaleo]

Funnily, earlier I reported that I don't get this "fast in the edges" behaviour at all. Does anyone? When I left click drag, it goes at the same speed no matter where on the screen I am. Or so it seems. I tried it out pretty carefully...

GaJ

When you click to pan or rotate, the speed at which the camera moves increases the further you move it from the starting position.

[GreenAsJade]

Maybe, I haven't tried that.

But this is not what the manual says, nor what WineCape said.

GaJ

[Vinnart]

The best advice I can give anyone is to get a mouse with as many programble buttons. I have mine tied to camera controls. Also get used to using left, and right mouse buttons for fine camera control. Do this and I am sure you will navigate with ease.

[sharaleo]

But this is not what the manual says, nor what WineCape said.

Seriously?

From the manual, bottom of page 19 in the Tutorial section:

"To move the camera forward, backward, left, or right, press and hold the left

mouse button and drag the mouse. The camera will pan and follow your

motion. To change the direction that the camera is facing while staying in

place, press and hold the right mouse button and drag the mouse. This is

analogous to swiveling your head. The camera facing will move with the

motion of the mouse.

It is important to know where your cursor is on the screen, because the sensitiv-

ity of these changes decreases as the cursor approaches the edge of the screen.

To move quickly, click your cursor in the center of the screen; to make small

adjustments to the camera, click the camera click the cursor nearer to the

edge of the screen."

The last sentence of the above is not well written, however.

And I directly quoted WineCape - " left click drag = lateral movement (slow = in middle screen view, fast = edges) and right click drag (left/right = swivel on axis, up/down = change height angle)"

[sharaleo]

The best advice I can give anyone is to get a mouse with as many programble buttons. I have mine tied to camera controls. Also get used to using left, and right mouse buttons for fine camera control. Do this and I am sure you will navigate with ease.

Good advice. Hotkeys, binded to mouse buttons or otherwise, are an essential way to get around in CMBN.

From a thread i posted elsewhere:

Tips to get around for those that have not played (or in a while).

1 - After selecting a unit, press TAB. it will zoom to just behind the unit at the current camera height.

2 - After you have TABbed to a unit, right click will now pivot around the unit, rather than pivot the camera itself.

3 - Press 'v' to reverse the camera view.

4 - Camera height hot keys (1 - 5) are useful for quick adjustments.

Bind some of these keys to a mouse and you will be rocking, but it does not excuse the cumbersome mouse camera controls.

[WineCape]

Maybe, I haven't tried that.

But this is not what the manual says, nor what WineCape said.

GaJ

Apologies GAJ, maybe I should have been clearer and explain thus with camera/mouse movement.

Imagine you watching through a gun scope, with the middle of your computer screen = the centre of the scope.

Point your mouse pointer roughly to the centre of computer screen. Click + hold your LMB. Now move/point the mouse pointer a few cm's to the left/right (roughly 3-5cm) while still holding down the LMB. You will now scroll laterally at a reduced speed. Move the mouse/pointer further from the middle of the screen closer to your screen edge, while still holding LMB, and the lateral scrolling speed will increase. LMB + pointer at top/bottom screen move= same principle, now with forward/backward camera movements.

RMB + left/right pointing = swivel on own axis, RMB + up/down pointing - inclination view. Coupled with the mentioned TAB Camera Lock View, you will find easier to navigate. Let me know if you do not get this mouse behaviour speed movement. I use an ATI card and have the "ATI Left-click compatibility" option selected (ON) in the OPTIONS menu.

[sharaleo]

Thanks WineCape,

I did quote you, but admittedly did not elaborate further on what you meant.

[shredder]

Thanks everyone for the feedback. I have a Logitech gaming mouse with side buttons so will try to map camera controls to it. I know it doesn't do any good to whine about the cumbersome camera controls so will do my best to adapt. Any chance a talented mod maker could completely revamp this system so as to make it intuitive and not such a pita? How about a mini-map that one could click on to instantly move the camera to that position (I've read somewhere that there are games that exist that actually do this - lol)

[WineCape]

I know it doesn't do any good to whine about the cumbersome camera controls so will do my best to adapt.

They do take note of ALL complaints. There is always room for improvement; some proposed feature(s) will only make it into a patch, or new game release, depending on its status/rank on the BFC ToDo list, as well as other technical feats (programming/time etc..) to make it possible without spending too much time thereon, at the expense of features ranked above it. Steve has mentioned their ToDo list can, at times, be more numerous then a telephone directory listing.

I think it will bode well if Steve, as a sticky in future given his time, explain the schedule Charles specifically has in the process of implementing, programming, changing and trying to implement features, given his time limit. I can tell you, there are not enough days in the year, given that they are only 2 programmers.

[sharaleo]

Any chance a talented mod maker could completely revamp this system so as to make it intuitive and not such a pita? How about a mini-map that one could click on to instantly move the camera to that position.

Begging your pardon shredder, but that attitude is severely flawed for a couple of reasons:

Firstly, CMBN is most likely not designed with anywhere the necessary level of mod-ability that would facilitate this.

Secondly, how about we petition the actual Developer - you know, the ones taking our money, to recognise areas where improvements can be made and action them.

I can accept the camera controls the way they are now and can accept that they are unlikely to change in the current iteration. But if you sit back on your laurels and expect modders to fix issues that Developers should have considered during the development cycle, then things will never get better.

Similarly, if BF Developers don't listen to the views of NEW players and also play a wide range of competing games then they are doing their community a serious disservice in that they are not exposing themselves to their own game's weaknesses or just improved ways to do things.

I say NEW players because too often on this forum I have seen senior members and Beta Testers respond to issues with 'that's the way it is, get used to it'. If that was their attitude during Beta, then they should simply not be Beta Testers. Their job is to push the game to new heights, not accept the status quo. If any one of the Beta Testers wants to tell me the mouse camera controls are the best they have ever used, they are delusional, or just not exposed to current games.

Conversely, If BF Developers want to tell me the mouse camera controls are the best they can be within the limitations of the engine, I can accept that take some solace that it is likely on the radar for CMx3.

There is a great game here, I know that and I never even played CMBO. I would love nothing more than to see it succeed, as it means more development money for BF. Sadly the way it stands, when reviews of CMBN begin to arrive in coming months, I predict they will be quite mixed and obtuse camera controls will be a prominent recurring theme. Poor reviews = poor sales. Now maybe BF don't care and survive on existing customer loyalty, but that would be a shame.

I think it will bode well if Steve, as a sticky in future given his time, explain the schedule Charles specifically has in the process of implementing, programming, changing and trying to implement features, given his time limit. I can tell you, there are not enough days in the year, given that they are only 2 programmers.

This would be a marvelous idea. It would give community members a much greater sense of the workload BF endure and the potential progress the game will be making over coming patches/modules.

[Vinnart]

Thanks everyone for the feedback. I have a Logitech gaming mouse with side buttons so will try to map camera controls to it. I know it doesn't do any good to whine about the cumbersome camera controls so will do my best to adapt. Any chance a talented mod maker could completely revamp this system so as to make it intuitive and not such a pita? How about a mini-map that one could click on to instantly move the camera to that position (I've read somewhere that there are games that exist that actually do this - lol)

here is my mouse set up if anyone wants to try:

Side foward and back buttons= cycle through units.=,-

Mid mouse button + center lock camera to unit. TAB

6 other buttons are set to preset camera views 1-6.

I fly around the map with speed, and ease. You will too.

[WineCape]

I say NEW players because too often on this forum I have seen senior members and Beta Testers respond to issues with 'that's the way it is, get used to it'. If that was their attitude during Beta, then they should simply not be Beta Testers....Conversely, If BF Developers want to tell me the mouse camera controls are the best they can be within the limitations of the engine, I can accept that take some solace that it is likely on the radar for CMx3.

I thought that was quite clear in all my readings here on various features/shortcomings of the game?

As to your first part in the quote, an assumption about Beta Testers and BFC. A wrong one at that, simply because:

There is not enough programmers to look at all/some/most features concurrently that are complained about, mentioned about, to be tested, improved and/or new ideas to be implemented given possible issues spotted and brand new features and their mechanics in such a complex simulation/abstraction. This is not Eve Online that has batches of programmers in different cities of the world, each tasked with a section of their programming code.

Your issue will be ranked higher - if you made your own issue list - what bothers you more then others, compared to mine as Beta tester, compared to BFC. Since BFC's is the one making a living off the game, I defer to their prioritizing issues and their "To be changed ASAP!" list.

All Beta Testers work from this understanding. There is a finite amount of programming time. Programming time, the shortage thereof which is more acute compared to any other big developer you care to name, due to 1 - and of late 2 - programmers working on CMBN.

There are 2 programmers. Two. Nik. Dois. Twee. Zwei. You would do well to remember this every time a legitimate game issue pops up that annoys the hell out of you. We as Beta testers certainly do, as well as many other forumites here. Note your issue, as you did here. Leave the assumptions that your specific issue is more game breaking, more important, or should be higher ranked on your ToDo list then any of the other hundreds BFC has to deal with from themselves, from the beta testers and from forum members here. BFC does listen, and they do note complaints posted, whether perceived or real, even if only a small group of their total base of players report them here.

Regards.

[Vinnart]

Also don't forget "the arm chair general sleeve" for mouse surface control in ultimate comfort