Wiggum Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 After playing the Demo tutorial (WEGO / Iron) i got a draw. Enemy Artillery (Nebelwerfer with TRP ?) kicked my ass just like those dug-in MG42... But, looks like the guys from the 795th Ost Battalion (Georgian) are really bad ass ! Facing some tanks that pound some HE into them from only 350m away dosent harass them much. You would expect at least some of them to rout, especially if there comerades are already dead and they (most likely) have no contact to their HQ. I mean, what can we expect from fanatic Waffen-SS troops if even this low quality guys put up such a fight ? I saw some of them run away to the edge of the map but they not routed (0 MIA for them) ! They stayed at the edge of the map while my guys shooting at them for nearly 8 minutes. In CMSF troops running to the edge of the map were most likely routing units that would disappear and counted as MIA in the AAR Screen. I mean, i not want them to run away after the first few rounds fired but come on, 3 Shemans pounding them with HE for so many minutes and they just stay...i mean not a single lonely and badly beaten guy of them routing ?? Any thoughts about that ? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ng cavscout Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 MIA stats only represent troops that surrendered (totally) to the enemy. As for routing, I have noticed troops are much more likely to cower uselessly or give themselves short movement orders to cover than actually totally rout off the board. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wiggum Posted May 12, 2011 Author Share Posted May 12, 2011 MIA stats only represent troops that surrendered (totally) to the enemy. As for routing, I have noticed troops are much more likely to cower uselessly or give themselves short movement orders to cover than actually totally rout off the board. Sure about that ? I thought that MIA are the routed and the POW's ? Another thing that looks a bit suspicious to me: After a really well aimed and violent artillery strike which killed about 10 guys and wounded many more my squads close (~25m) to that event were only supressed for 1 minute...i mean i would expect them to be absolutly shaken and even panic ! I remember CMSF were some HE rounds fired into a building were not enough to supress the enemys inside for a single minute... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Springelkamp Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 After playing the Demo tutorial (WEGO / Iron) i got a draw. Enemy Artillery (Nebelwerfer with TRP ?) kicked my ass just like those dug-in MG42... I think it is important in this scenario to push on hard, because I have seen several of my old positions blasted by enemy artillery. Fortunately all my men were already in the next front line by that time. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 CM:BN troops don't (can't) run off the board. If they run to the map edge that's just an unforunate consequence of there being a map edge. The AI does have a retreat function that's most noticeable (and useful) in buildings. Depending on their level of motivation they're likely to relocate and keep fighting rather than die where they stand. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wiggum Posted May 12, 2011 Author Share Posted May 12, 2011 So now we finally get a surrendering feature but loos the routing (troops disappearing from the map) ?? Sounds bad to me... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Springelkamp Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 CM:BN troops don't (can't) run off the board. If they run to the map edge that's just an unforunate consequence of there being a map edge. The AI does have a retreat function that's most noticeable (and useful) in buildings. Depending on their level of motivation they're likely to relocate and keep fighting rather than die where they stand. I think the tutorial scenario could use a bit of sheltered terrain for the panicked Germans to retreat to (out of range of the victory objective), because the board edge was full of beaten Germans that couldn't get away. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 Most of the maps have somewhat more elbow room for forces to relocate without approaching the map edge. QB maps especially tend to have lots of elbow room. I confess one of my release scenarios I might have not added a generous rear area, but I have yet to see anyone trying to huddle along the map margin while playtesting. If you crave exiting troops you can always paint map margins as exit zone terrain objectvies. Anyone who touches them would be 'raptured' off the map. Just don't inadvertantly touch the exit zone. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wiggum Posted May 12, 2011 Author Share Posted May 12, 2011 If you ask me that could turn out to be a real issue... Imagine large scenarios were you maybe will run into locations full of beaten enemys. This can take away some immersion and also will lead to many KIA and WIA more which actually should be MIA because they would have routed if not magical stopped at the edge of the map. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 I agree with MikeyD. When I played the Tutorial I noticed this too, yet in 2 years of play testing CM:BN this hasn't come up even once as an issue. I think it mostly has to do with the German force being universally horrible. In a real battle there would be a mix and therefore the chances of running into this situation are almost zero. Still, now that the issue has been raised for at least an extreme situation, it does warrant looking into. But then we get into the old problem of defending a map edge being almost impossible because your units will keep routing off the map and being permanently lost. This was a problem in CMx1 that we were hoping to avoid in CMx2. Steve 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkEzra Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 Wiggum: You might try two things: edit question addressed by BFC 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wiggum Posted May 12, 2011 Author Share Posted May 12, 2011 @ Steve I dont think the German force being "universally horrible" in this scenario. In CMSF there were much more horrible Syrian forces if you ask me. Again, facing those Shermans that were pounding them with so much HE over so many minutes without routing looks "bad-ass" to me... @ MarkEzra Thanks, dident have time to read the manual actually. Manual says: Heavily shaken, panicked soldiers may rout. Routing occurs when a soldier’s combat morale is so badly shaken (usually after repeated Panic states) that he stops any further participation for the entire remaining duration of the battle. This may mean simply cowering in a hole on the ground or throwing away his weapon and running away. Routed soldiers appear as MIA (Missing in Action) on the After-Action Report. Unlike surrendering, routing is automatically successful, and the routed soldier disappears under a red exclamation mark. So, there is routing in the game ! But without running to the map edges (which is a great improvement actually). And routed troops are counted as MIA, like i expected. But, is routing that rare ingame ? If even the guys from the 795th Ost Battalion (Conscripts in CM categories = low quality) did not rout while facing some Shermans with overwhelming firepower ? Then i would expect "better" troops to even stand more odds which should make real routing a really rare event. EDIT: And the troops recovering from a retreat should better search for some cover instead standing in the middle of a field. If this is not possible then better take them from the map (count them as routed) instead. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergei Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 I believe the manual is outdated in that regard. Surrendering has in every regard replaced the routing. There are also exit zones available, so if the defenders can be expected to be pushed to the map limits, this can be used as a safe way to allow them retreat off the map. This method is used in some full game scenarios. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt Joch Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 In CMSF, routing was handled differently. A routed soldier would simply disappear and an orange "!" icon would appear which would fade away after a few seconds. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wiggum Posted May 12, 2011 Author Share Posted May 12, 2011 I believe the manual is outdated in that regard. Surrendering has in every regard replaced the routing. ...which would explain those strange behaviour. But why did they replace it ? Surrendering is just not the same as routing. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 CMx1-style off-map routing was never in CMx2 so they didn't 'replace' that. They did do away with the mysterious disappearing (!) soldiers which was never a particularly popular feature of CMSF. I may be wrong, but I think they were well into CM:Afghanistan development before the finally brought back exit zones. So for most of the time the game CMx2 engine had no exiting at all, short of being wounded and treated then disappearing from the battlefield. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wiggum Posted May 12, 2011 Author Share Posted May 12, 2011 Now im really confused... So routing can only be simulated with exit zones ? I think there should be: Retreat (running into better cover or away from enemy fire into cover) Rout (panic, getting the hell out of there / unit becomes useless for any kind of action = disappears) Recovering from Rout is maybe not in the scale of CM, but recovering from a retreat is. But beaten troops in the middle of a open field doing nothing else but awaiting annihilation...i dont know. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Springelkamp Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 Now im really confused... So routing can only be simulated with exit zones ? I think there should be: Retreat (running into better cover or away from enemy fire into cover) Rout (panic, getting the hell out of there / unit becomes useless for any kind of action = disappears) Recovering from Rout is maybe not in the scale of CM, but recovering from a retreat is. But beaten troops in the middle of a open field doing nothing else but awaiting annihilation...i dont know. I think the old option, routing = disappearing, is good when no enemy unit is near, while surrendering is a nice option when enemy troops are near. (unless you are wearing a black uniform). 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noxnoctum Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 I dunno, my armor was doing a fantastic job of suppressing basically the entire main German line at the crossroads objective. Once the AT gun was spotted and taken out that is (at the cost of one of my Shermans...))... once it was dead though, I had all 4 of my remaining tanks pounding the brush incessantly with HE and MG fire and my troops were literally able to run across the open field only very occasionally getting shot at. Once they arrived at the crossroads about 80% of the enemy troops were already dead from the Shermans' fire. I took maybe 2-3 more casualties when a guy with an MP40 blasted out, but my point squad easily cleaned up the rest (maybe 10 guys). They were all busy cowering for the most part. I got a total victory quite easily... despite losing an entire squad when the bridge they were crossing got knocked out by the AT gun. 932-110, my favor . 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wiggum Posted May 12, 2011 Author Share Posted May 12, 2011 Problem for me is: Most CM maps are kind of small and with no room to retreat too you will run into those beaten bunch sooner or later. Anyway, i will play another scenario now...maybe this tutorial was not the best to build a opinion. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Springelkamp Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 Problem for me is: Most CM maps are kind of small and with no room to retreat too you will run into those beaten bunch sooner or later. Anyway, i will play another scenario now...maybe this tutorial was not the best to build a opinion. Or you open the scenario in the editor, and past 8 metres of terrain to the border, and make it drop down 10 metres. A trash can for retreating units :-) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wiggum Posted May 12, 2011 Author Share Posted May 12, 2011 @noxnoctum I would expect those low quality troops to rout when facing such violent firepower. Going prone and awaiting annihilation behind this stone wall is not what sounds traceable. If they dont panic when facing 4 Shermans only 300m away with no AT capability...then give them some medals please. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noxnoctum Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 @noxnoctum I would expect those low quality troops to rout when facing such violent firepower. Going prone and awaiting annihilation behind this stone wall is not what sounds traceable. If they dont panic when facing 4 Shermans only 300m away with no AT capability...then give them some medals please. Some of them tried to run away... thing is, they were in cover... the ones that DID retreat just got mowed down even more easily because I had total LOS to them. The ones in cover were getting area fired on cause I wasn't exactly sure where they were. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wiggum Posted May 12, 2011 Author Share Posted May 12, 2011 Some of them tried to run away... thing is, they were in cover... the ones that DID retreat just got mowed down even more easily because I had total LOS to them. The ones in cover were getting area fired on cause I wasn't exactly sure where they were. But if you had canceled al fire orders, would they have routet then ? I dont believe they are that smart to know that routing would be even more worse for them. A FAST command and most of them could have gone away during my playthrough for sure. I hammered the AT gun with ~25 HE rounds and in the end, the crew (some of them dead) still was at the gun although i stopped shooting at them 15 minutes ago. They had enough chance to crawl away because there gun was KO anyway. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noxnoctum Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 Hey far be it from me to say the TACAI can't be improved a ton. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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