play with camera locked at ground level ?

[scottie]

Is there anyway to play by locking the camera to the units or slightly above ? or is this simply up to user discipline ?

1) its much prettier down there.

2) additional realism

[Erik Springelkamp]

But it isn't the scope of the game.

It isn't realism either, because your higher command units will have a whole array of tools like maps and radios and aides that know certain information, that the game provides in the form of the birds eye view.

[Johnsy]

I'd say you'd just need discipline.

[FragerZ]

It's going to be impossible to play like that... I think you'll realize that you're being silly half way through your first game.

[Thomm]

I was actually playing around with this with the beta.

Bottom line is that it should be doable with really small forces and pins on a printed-out map (no kidding).

Again, I played only for a few minutes and I was basically pissing my pants, because you loose all sense of the overall situation, your relationship to the rest of the force and the enemy.

It is certainly something I would like to refine some day.

Best regards,

Thomm

[scottie]

I was actually playing around with this with the beta.

Bottom line is that it should be doable with really small forces and pins on a printed-out map (no kidding).

Again, I played only for a few minutes and I was basically pissing my pants, because you loose all sense of the overall situation, your relationship to the rest of the force and the enemy.

It is certainly something I would like to refine some day.

Best regards,

Thomm

Interesting Thomm, certainly get something different from the game when playing at ground (ish) level.

[Pak40]

Basically it boils down to your discipline. Someone came up with some "hardcore" rules for CMx1 that basically limited you to ground level. The rules were developed partly for the experience of playing in that fashion but also because humans were so much better than the computer AI. Playing at ground level evened out playing field, so to speak, because now the human player plays by the same rules as the computer AI. ie, you can't see the entire battlefield as a whole.

[Broadsword56]

I was basically pissing my pants, because you loose all sense of the overall situation, your relationship to the rest of the force and the enemy.

From what I've been reading, that very closely describes what the Normandy hedgerow battles felt like to the troops (and even leaders up to battalion level) at the time!

But I still don't think I could play this way 100% with CMBN. It would require a level of "unit AI" that would let me stay in a small-unit's POV while the other units took care of themselves. Since I have to be the "brains" of every unit and give the orders, I can't really see any alternative to frequently zooming out and looking at the big picture.

This is why the replay function is so key to the CMBN experience. I usually try to pick a particular unit as my "rooting interest" at any given time and follow its story at ground level.

[aka_tom_w]

Basically it boils down to your discipline. Someone came up with some "hardcore" rules for CMx1 that basically limited you to ground level. The rules were developed partly for the experience of playing in that fashion but also because humans were so much better than the computer AI. Playing at ground level evened out playing field, so to speak, because now the human player plays by the same rules as the computer AI. ie, you can't see the entire battlefield as a whole.

Hi

They were called Franko's True Combat Rules (or Iron Man rules)

I have lobbied to have a fog of war (FOW) state in the game like this to be optional so no self discipline is required.

In the game now there is a Fog of War level called "Iron" but the its the same as

Elite except you as the player, cannot see your other friendly forces if one unit is selected,

so it does not play out the way Iron Man rules intended:

Quote:

FRANKO'S TRUE COMBAT RULES

1. INTRODUCTION. The following rules are designed to maximize the realism and immersion of single-player (Head-to-Head) play. Generally speaking, as the human player, you are not allowed to do use the tools of the game interface for the purpose of doing anything your troops could not do in real life. All rules set forth below must be construed according to that principle.

2. SELECTING UNITS. Only use the "+" or "-" keys to move from friendly unit to friendly unit. Then, use the "tab" key. You can then only rotate in place to scan the surrounding terrain (imagine you are where the unit is, and that you can only see what THAT unit can see..its pretty simple).

If there is friendly unit within the line of sight (LOS) of the unit you have currently selected, you do not have to use the + and - keys. Instead, you can simply point and click on that target unit, THEN hit the tab key. Any other way of accessing an enemy (I think he meant "friendly" ) unit is forbidden.

3. VIEWING YOUR SURROUNDINGS.

A. PANNING. After accessing the unit and hitting the tab key(which orients the view of the unit forward), you can only "look around" by using the pivot keys (1,3,7,9) on the keypad (the rotational arrow keys in the VCR interface at the bottom of the screen work as well). In other words, you can pan 360 (your guys can turn around and look where they are). (I also pan by placing the cursor in the upper left and right corners of the screen)

B. BUILDINGS: If your units are in a building or the unit icon (such as vehicle), blocks your view, you can use the "8" key to click ahead only such distance which is necessary to clear the sprite.

C. ELEVATED VIEWS. Once turns begin (after setup), you may use only the lowest-level view ("1" on the keyboard), unless the following apply:

1. If your unit occupies a two-level building, you may use View 2 ("2" on the keyboard" ) from the units location; and

2. If you are on the top floor of a church, you can use View 2 or View 3, whichever you prefer

Note: The Setup procedure may offer you further viewing options. See Rule 7 Below.

4. ENEMY UNITS. You may not, under any circumstances, "click on" or "select" an enemy unit. Use

the "N" key to select targets. Any other way of accessing an enemy unit is forbidden.

5. ZOOM KEYS. You may not use the "zoom key" (the brackets), unless the following exceptions apply:

A. You may use up to Zoom 16x if you're unit you are "looking from" is platoon leader or above.

B. Your unit may use up to Zoom 4x if it has "optics".

If you really want to be anal, buttoned up tanks or tanks that suffered casualties can only use up to zoom 4x in the direction of their turret facing, because, that's where the gunners optics are facing! (Yes, I want to be anal... )

American tanks may not be able to zoom at all..we can debate that one later. (Yes, they can...)

Basically, if you select a unit and hit "Enter", if the de*****ion says "Has Binoculars", you can use up to 16x zoom.

C. During Setup, under specified conditions (see below)

6. WEATHER. You must always have (smoke,) weather and fog set to "full" (I want "EXTREME"... Hence, if you play on an ATI video card, please DO NOT select a scenario that has fog in it)

7. SPECIAL SETUP RULES. The following setup rules apply depending on whether you are the attacker, defender, or if the battle is a meeting engagement.

A. Attacker: During setup you may use View Level 7 ("7" on the keyboard) to aid in setup, in addition to the views you are permitted in Rules 1, 2, or 3, above. This "attacker's map" rule represents the "map" your troop commander would use to help prepare your troops for the assault. Whether such a map

is available should be specified in your briefing by the designer. (This is OK)

B. Defender: During setup you can use the map rule, above, if your signal corps has its act together. (It does)

In addition, you can freely move about the map in level 1, or view level 2 (or 3, if a church) if that part of the map your viewing from is a multi-level building

C. Meeting Engagements. Both sides may only view using the Attacker's map rule, or from any spot in their setup zone (only). Again, if a spot in their setup zone has a church or building, adjust accordingly.

D. OPTIONAL RULE: During setup you may print out a map (by taking a screen shot and printing the .bmp file) for use during the battle. This map should be at the minimum View Level 7.

(I plan on doing this)

8. GAME SETTINGS. Use only "Realistic" Sized units. Always have "EXTREME" terrain on. Turn unit bases and detailed armored hits "off". Generally speaking, use only those feature that the troops could use. EzCode Parsing Error: color=red]Set doo-dads to "EXTREME". Needless to say, Fog of War is ALWAYS set to E

I will accept the first offer, but PLEASE do so ONLY if you are capable of maintaining "discipline" while playing and can abide by all the above rules. I will accept additional offers only if they're armor only scenario's) I will trust that whomever offers will stick to these rules and if they find that they are unable to do so, then to let me know and we can finish the "old-fashioned" way... I will also trust that the scenario you choose to be played Double Blindly...

Well? We got's any Ironmen (masochists) out there?

[Thomm]

But I still don't think I could play this way 100% with CMBN. It would require a level of "unit AI" that would let me stay in a small-unit's POV while the other units took care of themselves. Since I have to be the "brains" of every unit and give the orders, I can't really see any alternative to frequently zooming out and looking at the big picture.

This is why I think a printed out map, with pins for the units, is necessary. And realistic. If you misplace your pin: tough luck, your unit may get lost.

I am sure that some day, in a different universe where I have lots of free time, I shall try to play this way.

Best regards,

Thomm

[Broadsword56]

Franko's Iron Man rules really appeal to me. Never tried them. But how about some stories from people who actually tried to play this way consistently? How did it work in practice? Was it more fun/immersive? Did it make for a much more challenging fight against single-player AI?

[Erik Springelkamp]

This is why I think a printed out map, with pins for the units, is necessary. And realistic. If you misplace your pin: tough luck, your unit may get lost.

But it would only be realistic if your subordinate commanders would be intelligent.

In CM you have to double as high command and lower command.

So if you are only playing as battalion commander, your company commanders would have to be intelligent, and if you want to play all commanders, you need a set of maps and info for each level. But then you as battalion commander have too much information.

The whole idea may sound heroic, but is fundamentally flawed, like most heroic ideas.

[Broadsword56]

The "too much information" issue arises all the time in wargame design. But I find the best games find a way to counterbalance it. So, for example, as a player you may know too much, but in various ways the game prevents you from acting on that information too quickly or unrealistically. I think in CMBN (or I hope, at least) that the more sophisticated "soft factors" (fitness, motivation, fatigue, experience, etc) and the vastly improved spotting system will prevent the player from pushing his pixeltroopen around at will.

[Dadekster88]

I'll definitely give it a whirl. I never did with CMBB because it was just too blocky but with this release it'll make for a good experience. Nothing like livin' in the trenches.

[Cymru]

I tried it back in the CMBO days, but only with small set-ups. Even then I found it hard to keep a mental picture of where everyone was in my head. So, I did what I had done in training: created a laminated map and used a grease pencil to mark locations. At that point I realized I was simply transferring the computer overhead view from the screen to the map and scrapped the whole idea.

[Vergeltungswaffe]

Have played the vast majority of CM battles pbem through the years, but on the rare fights against the ai, FTC rules was the only way I ever played, as it actually made it somewhat challenging.

The best would be clicking to a squad that had routed somewhere random with limited los and trying to figure out where the hell to go when they recovered to the point that they would take orders. Was usually a hoot and pretty immersive.

Really enjoyed it and plan to again in BN.

[gunnergoz]

Now you've gotten me curious to try this out some time with a relatively small force and tiny map, just to see what its like.

[Dadekster88]

I tried it back in the CMBO days, but only with small set-ups. Even then I found it hard to keep a mental picture of where everyone was in my head. So, I did what I had done in training: created a laminated map and used a grease pencil to mark locations. At that point I realized I was simply transferring the computer overhead view from the screen to the map and scrapped the whole idea.

To be honest I don't see the problem. The computer overhead is always correct; however, you on the other hand will be marked down locations based on your first person views through your platoon leaders eyes. If you make a mistake on your location and report that back to the CO unit which you then record on your grease board, well...things could get interesting, especially when that arty support arrives. :eek:

[Vinnart]

if you play at ground level then you basicly playing in more FPS type atmosphere which realy isn't combat mission. Perhaps BF would consider breaking new ground to make FPS. Would be interesing to what they envision in originality. The thing is there are already more tactical like FPS games like that that have been made already. "Operation Flashpoint" comes to mind. If they did do something I would love for it to look as real as Battlefield 3.

By the way if you never FPS online, and on a team using voice communication it can be a blast when people act like a real squad does by coordinating. I have played Battlefield like this and it was a lot of fun.

[Cymru]

To be honest I don't see the problem. The computer overhead is always correct; however, you on the other hand will be marked down locations based on your first person views through your platoon leaders eyes. If you make a mistake on your location and report that back to the CO unit which you then record on your grease board, well...things could get interesting, especially when that arty support arrives. :eek:

You are right, but found the time needed to replot every unit for each move became too tedious for enjoyment.

[Sarge]

played 1 battle in CMBB totally from level 1. it was truly eye-opening from a company commander pov, but took a very long time to play. not that i was in a hurry, but compared to other battles without restrictions. didn't have printed maps, just went from memory (mine's pretty good) plus having a platoon of King Tigers has a certain sense of invincibility so moving ahead wasn't too limited.. HT mounted Infantry was another story. Found myself firing mounted MG's at every conceivable hiding spot before moving an inch - very telling about differences of Level 1 and unlimited.

would i do it again... yes, but its hard to find someone willing to also be masochistic

[LJFHutch]

I just don't see that and Combat Mission being very compatible, certainly cool under some circumstances but as a company > battalion tactics game ... That would be very awesome if you had coplay and about 30 players each with a squad on each side and proper chain of command.