Wodin Posted April 26, 2011 Share Posted April 26, 2011 Did I notice that the dead soldiers are face up in the AAR's and wounded are face down? If so thats something I mentioned awhile ago with regards to a change with CMSF...after reading I think it was The American Warrior...while flying in his observation heli he could spot which of his troops where most likely wounded and which where dead purely by their pose...on the hole dead soldiers where on their back and wounded ones on their stomachs trying to take cover....infact going purely by this observation he got his heli to go in right near the VC to land and pick up two or more of his men who had been wounded but anyone else would have thought they had been killed purely by the intensity of fire...they had been up point in an open field heading towards the edge of the Jungle and had hit an ambush If this is the case then I like the detail... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nidan1 Posted April 26, 2011 Share Posted April 26, 2011 I don't think this is true in real life. As far as the game is concerned, if a pixel soldier is wounded, he may still try to crawl away hence his avatar would appear face down. A game expert would probably have to confirm this. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wodin Posted April 27, 2011 Author Share Posted April 27, 2011 Well a highly decorated American soldier Brig Gen John C "doc" Bahnsen Jr whose Vietnam memoir\dairy I highly recommend "American Warrior" wrote this in said book...it was his countless aerial observations over fire fights whilst directing the ground combat that he first noticed this phenomena. So I have no reason to doubt his word...obviously it wasn't that way in very case but enough for him to make quick calculations on who was wounded and killed and he was pretty much spot on every time... He was serving in the 1st Inf Division 11th Cavalry Regiment...one hell of a fighter and aggressive leader who's men would follow to hell and back... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergei Posted April 27, 2011 Share Posted April 27, 2011 It doesn't really make any sense. What if you die lying face down? What if you are wounded and unconscious or just unable to roll over to the acceptable position because of your wounds? He might as well have come to the conclusion that the ones who waved for the helicopter to land and take them with them were wounded, and the others were dead. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wodin Posted April 27, 2011 Author Share Posted April 27, 2011 Well I expect it's natural under fire to get onto your stomach and keep you head down especially if your wounded....obviously if your paralyesd it's different... Again I'm not arguing with a highly experienced Officer who fought in several combat zones...it was just one of his observations... The thing is it seems unlikely anyone would have risked taking in the Helicopter in this particular firefight as obviously it wasnt a medevac heli...but he could tell they were wounded becasue of their pose on the ground...they couldn't actually move as they where right infront of the VC...he was wounded geting them into the heli... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ssnake51 Posted April 27, 2011 Share Posted April 27, 2011 I have to admit to being somewhat skeptical of that claim. First time I had heard of such a claim. In any case, thanks for the recommendation on the book. I've already downloaded a sample of the kindle edition. Another excellent book that also deals with medevac missions is Michael Novosel's Dustoff: The Memoir of an Army Aviator. Unfortunately, it is out of print but used copies can still be picked up for a reasonable price. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nidan1 Posted April 27, 2011 Share Posted April 27, 2011 Well a highly decorated American soldier Brig Gen John C "doc" Bahnsen Jr whose Vietnam memoir\dairy I highly recommend "American Warrior" wrote this in said book...it was his countless aerial observations over fire fights whilst directing the ground combat that he first noticed this phenomena. So I have no reason to doubt his word...obviously it wasn't that way in very case but enough for him to make quick calculations on who was wounded and killed and he was pretty much spot on every time... He was serving in the 1st Inf Division 11th Cavalry Regiment...one hell of a fighter and aggressive leader who's men would follow to hell and back... Not having read this particular book, or being familiar with the exploits of this obviously experienced helo pilot, I will accept the observations he has made in the book. I can only go by my own experiece. Anyway, since no one from BF has said it one way or the other, I dont think that we can safely determine the status of a pixel soldier just by looking at his pose in the game. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisND Posted April 27, 2011 Share Posted April 27, 2011 You know you've been spending too much time looking at screenshots when... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wodin Posted April 27, 2011 Author Share Posted April 27, 2011 he wasn't a pilot...he was a commander...the voice in the sky...his commander was Pattons son.....another great book by a commnader in Vietnam is "Steel My Soldiers' Hearts : The Hopeless to Hardcore Transformation of U.S. Army, 4th Battalion, 39th Infantry, Vietnam" by David Hackworth....one of the best books on veitnam I've read that and Bahnsens and finally "Dak To: America's Sky Soldiers in South Vietnam's Central Highlands " by Edward Murphy. All the above are a superb read...your actually there in those jungles when you read them...I'd say Hackworth's the Murphy's and the Bahnsen's in that order...but all are definate reading and I can't recommend them enough. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StoneAge Posted April 28, 2011 Share Posted April 28, 2011 Interesting: A reason for dead men laying on their backs could be due to buddies/medics rolling them onto their backs to administer first aid and moving on once they know they can't do anything. leaving them on their backs. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wodin Posted April 28, 2011 Author Share Posted April 28, 2011 Interesting: A reason for dead men laying on their backs could be due to buddies/medics rolling them onto their backs to administer first aid and moving on once they know they can't do anything. leaving them on their backs. Obviously if he saw that he knows they are wounded...he is talking about seeing how the bodies are lying after taking hits pre any medics... I really have no reason not to believe him and he was one of the top Vietnam commanders....it is just maybe a phenomonen that had been overlooked due to most wars up until then directed at ground level... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Other Means Posted April 28, 2011 Share Posted April 28, 2011 I think if you're face down you're facing the enemy, while if you're face up you're just making yourself as comfortable as possible. You don't, after all, shoot between your feet. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nidan1 Posted April 28, 2011 Share Posted April 28, 2011 Wodin, can you quote from the book the actual way he describes this ability? This is sounding more and more like urban legend stuff to me. I have never in all my years of reading about Vietnam heard of such a thing. Now Bahnsen was certainly a flamboyant character, and an agressive combat leader, but those qualities have never made a person immune to telling slightly embellished war stories. Flying in a gunship at high speed and low level, and perhaps taking ground fire at the same time would make these kinds of observations difficult at best. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wodin Posted April 28, 2011 Author Share Posted April 28, 2011 Will try to find it...he wasn't in a gunship he was in the smaller heli that the commander flew in to direct the battle.. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wodin Posted April 28, 2011 Author Share Posted April 28, 2011 Ok first off my mistake it wasn't Bahnsen but David Hackworth "Steel my soldiers hearts". Another superb read...if you have an interest in Veitnam all three books I mentioned are extremely good. ""Bumstead, Turner and Keppel had bought into one of Sun Tzu's oldest, deadliest tactics, now a favourite VC trick: the lure. The single soldier sent running out of the woods during the air strikes was almost certainly a decoy used to suck our soldiers into a deadly L shaped ambush. The battalion battle log recording progressive sightings of the VC, tells the rest of the story: "one enemy....two enemy...a squad". Oribitng the flight, I could see that two men on the point nearest the tree libe were almost certainly dead. They lay on their backs, a telling sign, since wounded men on the battlefield almost always lie on their stomachs. But becasue the five soldiers in Sergeant Wallaces advance gaurd, one hundred yards behind the point, were on their bellies hugging the ground, I thought they just might be alive. If so, it wouldn't be long before they'd be joing Doi and Hayes." I suppose it might be some kind of survival thing...as long as your not obviously wounded enough that you can't move I suppose you would roll onto your belly and put your face into the dirt...sort of like the emu...as being wounded your already, I bet feeling very vulnerable, helpless and unable to defend yourself...probably more so than in any other time of your life...a bit like when being attacked people curl up with their head and face protected... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
usgubgub Posted April 28, 2011 Share Posted April 28, 2011 Probably, it works like this: face up bodies are more likely to be dead, as if they were wounded but still capable of moving they would turn face down; face down bodies are more likely to be wounded, although they may also be dead having fallen that way or having died after being severely wounded and managed to turn and try for cover, only to lose the fight for theur lives. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nidan1 Posted April 28, 2011 Share Posted April 28, 2011 Hackworth just probably made an intuitive observation based on the incident he was describing. He got into a lot of trouble with the Army late in his career, as well as while working as a military expert for cable news. A fine soldier, no doubt. His unwillingness to play the political game, and his outspokeness, ruined him. I have seen dead men on their stomachs and on their backs, I have seen wounded men on their stomachs and on their backs. I don't think there is any formula for determining their state by looking at them from the air. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dodger6118 Posted April 28, 2011 Share Posted April 28, 2011 Paramedic here. The reason the wounded are lying face down or on their side is due to the normal guarding reaction from pain. Think about it, any time you've ever gotten hurt and it REALLY hurt, you tripod over and guard the area with your body. You'd only lie on your back if you were rolled there or about to die. You stop feeling the pain, your body begins going numb and you roll over and sometimes try to sit up to give yourself a better airway and help with your breathing. I guess in short... it makes sense to me. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magpie_Oz Posted April 28, 2011 Share Posted April 28, 2011 I go with dodger just do an experiment, lie on the ground on your back and see how uncomfortable and vulnerable you feel. "I have seen dead men on their stomachs and on their backs, I have seen wounded men on their stomachs and on their backs. I don't think there is any formula for determining their state by looking at them from the air." Yes I would have thought it better to go down and help rather than just flying above taking notes, but I guess that was one of the big mistakes with Vietnam. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sburke Posted April 28, 2011 Share Posted April 28, 2011 I go with dodger just do an experiment, lie on the ground on your back and see how uncomfortable and vulnerable you feel. "I have seen dead men on their stomachs and on their backs, I have seen wounded men on their stomachs and on their backs. I don't think there is any formula for determining their state by looking at them from the air." Yes I would have thought it better to go down and help rather than just flying above taking notes, but I guess that was one of the big mistakes with Vietnam. Guess you better hope that whatever wounds you doesn't knock you unconscious or you're getting left for dead. :-O 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nidan1 Posted April 29, 2011 Share Posted April 29, 2011 I go with dodger just do an experiment, lie on the ground on your back and see how uncomfortable and vulnerable you feel. "I have seen dead men on their stomachs and on their backs, I have seen wounded men on their stomachs and on their backs. I don't think there is any formula for determining their state by looking at them from the air." Yes I would have thought it better to go down and help rather than just flying above taking notes, but I guess that was one of the big mistakes with Vietnam. Helicopters didn't just land in the midst of firefights to pick up casualties unless called in by commanders on the ground. At least that was the way it was in units I was with. Also we never had helicopters flying around us giving orders and such. The first time I ever saw anything like that was in the movie "Hamburger Hill" I dont know how true that was, having the battalion commander flying around above the action, micro managing every move. Hollywood usually has an agenda. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt Schultz Posted April 29, 2011 Share Posted April 29, 2011 The question could be answered if all the HE just blew 'em up like that 20mm did on the soldiers swarming the tank in SPR. "Here's to Sgt. Parker... and all the pieces of him we couldn't find." --- On the original observation/question ... I think we will just have to see when CMBN comes out if this behavior is present. As far as the real world discussion, the behaviour seems both logical and plausible, with the inclusion of all variables. Killed and falling forward, wounded yet unconcious facing up, etc would alter the equation somewhat I am sure. - 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wodin Posted April 29, 2011 Author Share Posted April 29, 2011 He did go in and get them...after directing smoke and arty....he received a medal as did the pilot for it...the man transformed a terrible combat unit into one that got results...in the Iron triangle, if I remember correctly... There where reasons he was above that particular battle...can't be bothered to type out all of it... Read the book, due to the amount of witnesses etc I don't think it's hyperbole...just a small observation I suppose that stuck in my mind when reading it, as to me it sounds plausable even on an instinctive level... It is a great read...he didn't take any ****...and was another who got results... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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