Battalion sizes

[noob]

Does anyone know the numerical breakdown of a standard US and German Infantry Battalion in CMBN ?

Or is it basically going to be exactly the same as in CMAK and CMBO ?

[Lt Belenko]

Historically accurate is the BFC goal.

If new data was located the between the development CMx1 and CMx2 it will be incorporated. Mostly the same is a good guess.

[Barkhorn1x]

Does anyone know the numerical breakdown of a standard US and German Infantry Battalion in CMBN ?

Or is it basically going to be exactly the same as in CMAK and CMBO ?

Here:

http://www.battlefront.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=blogcategory&id=276&Itemid=460

[MikeyD]

In that link I counted 23 different entries ending in the word 'Battalion'. Depending on which you decide to count seven or more are infantry battalions.

[sburke]

Does anyone know the numerical breakdown of a standard US and German Infantry Battalion in CMBN ?

Or is it basically going to be exactly the same as in CMAK and CMBO ?

I expect that while generally they should be similar, there will be some differences as now you have ammo carriers and the 1:1 design can allow for better detail on the Battalion organization than the older CMx1 structure.

May have to just wait until closer to release to see.

[Field Marshal Blücher]

Here:

http://www.battlefront.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=blogcategory&id=276&Itemid=460

While this link is awesome and useful, and everyone should look it over at least a couple of times, it's not really answering the OP's question. He doesn't want to know what types of battalions there are, he wants to know what the composition of individual battalion types are.

To his question, I will respond: As historically accurate as they can be. Without going into NDA-violating details, I read a lot of what went into the battalion TO&E, and I can say for sure that the guys upstairs are doing everything they can to make the battalion structures as accurate as possible.

[womble]

While this link is awesome and useful, and everyone should look it over at least a couple of times, it's not really answering the OP's question. He doesn't want to know what types of battalions there are, he wants to know what the composition of individual battalion types are.

I think the major point the link makes is that there's no such thing as "...a standard US and German Infantry Battalion in CMBN..."

[noob]

Here:

http://www.battlefront.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=blogcategory&id=276&Itemid=460

As others have mentioned it was not exactly what i was looking for but i'm glad you posted it is something i needed also

Looks like i will have to wait until i have the game to get the exact numbers, which is fine, thanks for all the responses.

[Barkhorn1x]

I think the major point the link makes is that there's no such thing as "...a standard US and German Infantry Battalion in CMBN..."

Correct, but each US Battalion TYPE did have a standard TO and often E as well *. I have no doubt that CMBN will feature a historically accurate representation of US forces.

Now, I am no expert on the Wehrmacht and I don't know how many sub "flavors" of battalion existed within the overall Heer framework so I will not comment as to whether CMBN will feature a TO&E for the "Ear-ache bicycle Company of the 203rd Zeelander Volksdeutsche Battalion (Detached)".

* "Ground Forces" commander Leslie McNair's great contribution to the US Armies war effort was battalion standardization. His less than great contribution was Tank Destroyer doctrine.

[Barkhorn1x]

As others have mentioned it was not exactly what i was looking for but i'm glad you posted it is something i needed also

Looks like i will have to wait until i have the game to get the exact numbers, which is fine, thanks for all the responses.

If you want to find TO&Es buy some Osprey titles or Google around. This info. is readily available today.

[GonzoAttacker]

Historically in Normandy the defense had limitations and Divisions were limited. They were reduced because of amount of men they had left because of Eastern front. Most of the divisions were down 50%. So Battalions were lite men they made strong battalions by using more equipment,like added a battalion of artillery to The TO&E.

I imagine that BF has all the info needed to apply such numbers. If you are designing "historic" scenarios, you will have to the do the research of the AO and supply the proper units. Heck we have had 10 years to prepare and new books with human information from all sides have been written in last 10 years that have opened even more resources right down to platoons defending and fighting in the AO.

[akd]

Historically in Normandy the defense had limitations and Divisions were limited. They were reduced because of amount of men they had left because of Eastern front. Most of the divisions were down 50%. So Battalions were lite men they made strong battalions by using more equipment,like added a battalion of artillery to The TO&E.

I imagine that BF has all the info needed to apply such numbers. If you are designing "historic" scenarios, you will have to the do the research of the AO and supply the proper units. Heck we have had 10 years to prepare and new books with human information from all sides have been written in last 10 years that have opened even more resources right down to platoons defending and fighting in the AO.

Understrength units are created at the discretion of the scenario designer in the editor. There is no need for a separate OOB and TO&E for an understrength unit. Battalion is the highest level org in the game, although higher assets like artillery can be added easily.

[Waycool]

Check out http://www.bayonetstrength.150m.com/ for many TOE WE of Allied and Axis formations.

[c3k]

Zetterling has published a very concise OOB of the German units in Normandy. One thing to remember for the German side is that just about no German division had the same structure as another. Within each division, they rated their battalions and battalion equivalents by a combat rating which primarily counted manpower (or its combat equivalent). The scale had, I believe, 5 ratings, corresponding with less than 100 men, 100 to 200, etc, up to the highest rating of over 500 (or was it 600? Shrug.). Not many German battalions were even close to their KStN strengths.

Ken

[Michael Emrys]

If you want to find TO&Es buy some Osprey titles or Google around. This info. is readily available today.

I had a great resource which I referred to frequently to answer such questions as these. It was an official US Army publication on the infantry regiment. In the back it gave the TO&Es of all the units in an infantry division starting with the company and going right up the scale. It listed every man in the unit, gave his rank and what weapon he carried. It was a gold mine for official TO&E information. Unfortunately, it was one of the casualties in a fire that occurred in my building a few years back, and so far I haven't been able to find another copy. This one I just happened upon in a used book store. It was printed in the middle of 1944, so especially relevant to our present discussions. If you ever come across one, snatch it up and guard it with your life. It is worth more than gold.

Michael

[JonS]

I had a great resource which I referred to frequently to answer such questions as these. It was an official US Army publication on the infantry regiment. In the back it gave the TO&Es of all the units in an infantry division starting with the company and going right up the scale. It listed every man in the unit, gave his rank and what weapon he carried. It was a gold mine for official TO&E information. ... so far I haven't been able to find another copy.

This will do you just as well:

http://www.100thww2.org/100org/100org.html

And this for non-divisional units:

http://www.100thww2.org/support/supunits.html

[Battlefront.com]

Understrength units are created at the discretion of the scenario designer in the editor. There is no need for a separate OOB and TO&E for an understrength unit. Battalion is the highest level org in the game, although higher assets like artillery can be added easily.

Absolutely correct. One of the great things about the CMx2 TO&E is that we can include the full deal and let people whittle down individual components to their heart's content. And where there were common, or even official, variations we now have the ability for the scenario designer (or QB player) to choose from various options within the context of that Battalion. This was utterly impossible for CMx1 and quite clunky for CM:SF/CM:A.

Here's a good example for formational level variations. The Panzeraufklärung Batallion has a ton of different variations because even the official TO&E allowed for them. One Division would have more heavy armored cars, another might have lots of 250 halftracks. So on and so forth. The game lets you choose between the various options within the context of a single Panzeraufklärung Batallion. No more having to figure out how Armored Car Companies were organized or what their place was within the larger battalion formation. It's there right in front of the player, no guesswork needed.

An example of equipment level variations can be seen with US Medium Tank Companies. Their HQ theoretically had 2x Sherman "Assault Tanks" with 105mm Howitzers attached to the HQ. Problem was very few of these were actually available for the early part of the campaign in Normandy, therefore most had standard Shermans. The game allows you to choose whether you want to go with the theoretically correct TO&E or the more practical TO&E. Or you can do both by selecting one of each.

The alternative to the above would be to have 2000 TO&E variants to make sure you could have this or that combo, or have a very few number of variants that are extremely restrictive. We like flexibility of the system we chose a lot more

Steve

[Broken]

Why no M12 155mm SP artillery?

There were 6 battalions of these beasts at Normandy (attached to 2nd and 3rd Armored divisions, among others). There were a number of occasions where they were used in a direct fire role as emergency AT, bunker busters, etc. If the Germans get 150mm sIGs, why not M12s? Certainly less rare than Sturmtigers or Jagdtigers although most of the M-12's direct fire usage came later against the Siegfried Line.

A mobile direct fire 155mm gun could be so much fun (depending on which end of it you were on).

[pagskier]

Will you have different TO&E depending of the division you choose?

With some historical differences?

[Battlefront.com]

Broken,

The simple answer... they weren't used in a CM context hardly at all. When they were brought into do direct fire the situation was pretty much not the sort of thing that would make for an interesting scenario. Germans go their sIG because they are on the defensive and these guys aren't very mobile, so there would be a bigger chance of them being involved in a CM type battle.

Plus, we have to draw the line somewhere. We don't have the Hummel either, which is actually the direct thing to compare to the M12, not the sIG.

Pagskier,

You do not choose a Division or Regiment. Battalion is the highest level CM simulates. It's up to the scenario designer, or QB player, to choose what they choose.

Steve

[Barkhorn1x]

Here's hoping that the last "catch all" module gives us some exotic missing stuff like the M12/Wespe/Hummel/Brummbar, etc.

[noob]

Here's hoping that the last "catch all" module gives us some exotic missing stuff like the M12/Wespe/Hummel/Brummbar, etc.

Yes, and even better would be captured French tanks, then the modders could get to work making Battle of France units

[Sakai007]

The Wespe and Hummel are two of my favorite toys in CMx1. Nothing stops and infantry advance cold like 150mm and 105mm fire, nothing. Throw an MG42 or two in there to keep the infantry pinned while you blast em, even better.

[womble]

In my ignorance, I'd thought the Wespe was a relatively commonplace piece of kit, at least across the war as a whole. Is it just vanishingly rare in the West, or at the end of the war, or have I just gotten the wrong end of a stick? Again.

[Broken]

Broken,

The simple answer... they weren't used in a CM context hardly at all. When they were brought into do direct fire the situation was pretty much not the sort of thing that would make for an interesting scenario. Germans go their sIG because they are on the defensive and these guys aren't very mobile, so there would be a bigger chance of them being involved in a CM type battle.

Plus, we have to draw the line somewhere. We don't have the Hummel either, which is actually the direct thing to compare to the M12, not the sIG.

Steve

Thanks for the reply, Steve. I understand it is too late to add the M12 for the Normandy module, but when you get around to modeling Hummels, JagdTigers, Brumbars, etc., could you squeeze in the M12? It was one of the few vehicles overlooked in CM1.

I understand the Germans were mostly on the defensive, but even they occasionally penetrated to the American artillery line, even at Normandy. On such occasions, the artillery usually gave a very good accounting of itself.