Are Marders better than Brad's ?

[snake_eye]

Playing NATO "25 km to Suran" scenario, I have been impressed by the ability of the Marders to suppress and destroy the infantry. The rate of fire of their 20 mm Cannon made somehow a zipping sound …Brrrr.. . The tracers due to the high cyclic rate made almost a straight line to the target.

The Marders seemed to travel more quickly and having a lower profile than the Brad’s . The latter was useful for seeking protection while firing behind a berm. The remote cannon being higher than the hull seems to be an asset in such a situation.

There were no tanks, so I can’t say how it will fare against them in defence.

These are first hand thoughts and in no way related to documents comparing the two tracks .

I might be wrong.

What do you think about that ?

Cheers

[Damian90]

Marder 1A3 and A5 are inferior in practically all aspects to M2A3, M2 from the start have stabilizasion for armament and turret and Marder doesen't have stabilizastion up to this days, thermal optics in M2A3 are newer II gen FLIR, it got BMS, armor protection from frontal aspect against autocannon fire is similiar but M2 can be equipped with ERA (whell it is rather SLERA than normal ERA). Also 25mm M242 gun have capabilitie to do much more damage than 20mm RH-202, so it doesen't need such high ROF, thanks to that it also saves ammo. M220 BGM-71E TOW-2A is also better than Marder's Milan launcher, because, it is operated by gunner and use full capabilities of M2 FCS, there are two missiles in launcher, and commander doesen't need to expose himself to fire and reload launcher.

Of course Bradley is bigger but remember that US HBCT have organic companies composed by tank platoons and mechanized infatry with M2's, so M2's always have support from M1 tanks (at least they should have). In German Army it seems to be a bit different IRCC.

[phil stanbridge]

Having played that mission as blue and red I'll just add that I found the Marder's incredibly tough little IFVs. Sure they take damage from light airburst and general purpose artillery but they are quick and nimble and that 20mm does indeed wreak havoc amongst the enemy infantry and soft vehicles. Ideal for that mission I'd say.

[snake_eye]

Thanks DAMIAN 90 "Marder 1A3 and A5 are inferior in practically all aspects to M2A3, M2" for your excellent data on both.

It might be the game setting, but my first impression like the one of Phil STANBRIDGE against the Infantry,surprised me a lot. I already, have had Brad's going against Infantry and unable to destroy them at average and close range, the way Marder did it.

Against tanks, besides its low profile, I think that providing your data it won't be the same.

It would be amazing to have alternatively, Brad's and Marder's attacking the same Syrian defensive line and compare the results being obtained by the game setting

Cheers

[Damian90]

Marder can be a bit more effective against enemy infatry due to higher ROF of it's main armament, so it faster suppres enemy and also ther are more exploding HE rounds in short period of time.

[Alan8325]

Do you think the accuracy of high-ROF weapons such as the Marder cannon and 23mm zsu might be overmodeled?

[Damian90]

Maybe, DUNNO, in fact in reality at least IFV's shoot in short bursts, M2's main armament also can shoot preatty fast but normally gunner shoot 2, sometimes 3 rounds bursts for accuracy and to save ammo.

[MikeyD]

High ROF cannon may seem unusually accurate simply because a few rounds from a burst are pretty much guaranteed to hit something, especially if you're firing HE. We've all seen surviving infantry in the game crawling out from beneath 'bang-bang-bang' 25mm Bradley or LAV gunfire. Shilka on the other hand - its like you turned a fire hose on the target. Everybody's going to get hit! There's definitely a difference between 225 rounds-per-minute and 4,000 rounds-per-minute. :eek:

[phil stanbridge]

haha.. I have to say, I was on the receiving end of the dreaded Shilka tonight in one mission. The thing brewed up my Wiesel and the stray rounds seemed to literally go right through that and into the building behind it - which promptly killed half my infantry squad who were hiding there. Amazing stuff. Would not like to face one in reality!

[Jonny(FGM)]

Quick n00b question.

Is the gun on the shilka the same as the zues AA gun of Generation Kill fame?

If so it looks a lot scarier in CM than in GK

[Dietrich]

I'm half expecting someone to come out with a "Shilka holds up column of Blue infantry who happen to not have air support or Javelins at the time" scenario any day now.

In any case, I'll probably make such a scenario myself one of these days.

[Boche]

Quick n00b question.

Is the gun on the shilka the same as the zues AA gun of Generation Kill fame?

If so it looks a lot scarier in CM than in GK

i was thinking the exact same thing the other day

[Damian90]

Quick n00b question.

Is the gun on the shilka the same as the zues AA gun of Generation Kill fame?

If so it looks a lot scarier in CM than in GK

Nah, ZU-23-2 is different gun that main armament of ZSU-23-4 Shilka.

ZSU-23-4 use 4x23mm 2A7 AZP-23 Amur liquid cooled auto cannons... but even more fearsome is 2K22 Tunguzka and it's 2x30mm 2A38M auto cannons, these auto cannons are also mounted on newer Pantsir-S1, really fearsome weapon.

Well, other interesting concept was this:

And this:

Shame that due to cost savings none of these were fielded.

[Bradley]

Arty and 2 Leopards just made quick work of 2 Shilkas in Handstreich!

[ChrisND]

The Shilka is something of a glass cannon. If it gets the drop on its prey, it can be devastating. It can't take any punishment however. It is a LOT of fun in the hands of a player, trying to maneuver it around for a clean, safe shot.

[Boche]

the shilka has deffinatelly become a cult weapon around these parts

[akd]

Nah, ZU-23-2 is different gun that main armament of ZSU-23-4 Shilka.

Pretty sure it was supposed to be a ZSU-23-4 in Generation Kill.

[Boche]

atelast i thought i saw 4 barrels

[SlapHappy]

The Shilka is something of a glass cannon. If it gets the drop on its prey, it can be devastating. It can't take any punishment however. It is a LOT of fun in the hands of a player, trying to maneuver it around for a clean, safe shot.

Tell that to my two Leopard crews who unloaded three direct frontal hits on a Shilka, who then proceeded to disable them both before they finally brewed it up.

Fluke? I hope so.......

[MikeyD]

the shilka has deffinatelly become a cult weapon around these parts

I'll admit I predicted before it came out that Shilka would be a mere 'target vehicle' in the game, like he BRDM armored car. But the first time I saw it scour all of the hardware off the turret face of a Leopard II I was sold. Wow. Yeh, you can get the crew to bail by plinking it with .50 cal sniper rifle from 900m, but that doesn't make it any less fun to see in action.

[Chops]

I was playing as the Mujahedeen against the Soviets in CM:A; a Shilka took three RPG hits from the side and kept on truckin' with no discernible damage, much to the shock and horror of my long-haired pixeltrippin truppin'.

[MikeyD]

Shilka - especially a Shilka running low on ammo - has an unusual amount of dead space in the interior. An RPG blasting thought an empty front ammo bin or ripping up radar electronics in the back is not likely to put the vehicle out of action. Poor little Wiesel, on the other hand, doesn't have a square inch of interior space to spare. A TOW Wiesel goes off like a bomb when hit.

[Boche]

Shilka - especially a Shilka running low on ammo - has an unusual amount of dead space in the interior. An RPG blasting thought an empty front ammo bin or ripping up radar electronics in the back is not likely to put the vehicle out of action. Poor little Wiesel, on the other hand, doesn't have a square inch of interior space to spare. A TOW Wiesel goes off like a bomb when hit.

is it true that damage models in the game are modelled to such detail?! if so im more impressed of BF more than ever

[Ryujin]

Don't forget the M2A3 has a Commander's Independent Thermal Viewer, 2x jav's and a CLU, and BFT in addition to all the other stuff mentioned. You also get the oh so deadly M7 BFIST from time to time (first round fire for effect artillery).

I'd say the mader scores points for it's low profile, use vs infantry, and general nippy-ness, but the Bradley is just on average better as an IFV.

(although the commander/gunner should have to expose himself a little to reload the TOWs, they just don't model turning the turret 90 degrees left, max elevation, and then popping open the troop hatch to load missiles. Not nearly as bad as the Milan though).

is it true that damage models in the game are modelled to such detail?! if so im more impressed of BF more than ever

Yup, the damage model is top notch.

[MikeyD]

There's a LOT going on under the hood that they don't tell us. Game damage models may not be a 'secret' but they're not exactly talked-up either. All I know is passing remarks and references. Let's just say its a safe bet to assume a more detailed damage model than a simpler one.