Why I hate hand grenades...

[c3k]

Gents,

I'm having a nasty close quarters fight in some dense woods against a dug-in enemy. Their grenades are absolutely gutting my men. (Um, literally.)

Here's my understanding: CMSF has men bunched up a bit more than would be realistic. There's NOWHERE near 5-10 meters between men. Instead, the members of a team are usually cheek by jowl. That's fine. I'm told that artillery and small arms are nerfed a little bit to make up for that crowding. Hey, that makes sense. Yet, hand grenades are volleyed; you don't get one, you get a dozen incoming. They are more deadly than air support. I have lost count of how many times a single grenade takes out 4 of my men.

So, are grenades too effective in the game?

Thanks,

Ken

[hoolaman]

I don't think each grenade is too effective, but I also wonder whether the RAIN of grenades from a single unit is realistic. I guess if you are going to use them then you might as well use a lot of them.

I think the small HE effects give pretty good results, despite the fudging for troop density.

[YankeeDog]

I don't think each grenade is too effective, but I also wonder whether the RAIN of grenades from a single unit is realistic. I guess if you are going to use them then you might as well use a lot of them.

I think the small HE effects give pretty good results, despite the fudging for troop density.

This. I have long been of the opinion that the effect of individual grenades might be relatively realistically modeled in CM, but that units tend to use grenades at a rate much higher than could really be achieved in a tactical situation, especially at very close ranges.

Admittedly, I have no first-hand training as to how to throw explosives about, but from what I've been able to glean from training films and texts, it takes considerable attention and coordination to avoid fragging your teammates when you throw a grenade, and this tends to decrease the practical "sustained fire" rate for grenades. I can believe a single coordinated volley of 2-4 grenades more or less at once, especially for an ambush. But sometimes CMSF squads just keep tossing grenade after grenade, like a baseball team running a pepper drill.

I also think this effect existed in CMx1, so this is not necessarily new to CMSF.

[theFightingSeabee]

Yeah Ken, I have to agree. If the grenades were 'nerfed' a bit, it might be more realistic. You really have to get one close to pepper enemies and closer to kill.

And yes YankeeDog, tossing a frag is harder than it looks. I was surprised in training how many people had trouble throwing them. (Ofcourse we didn't get a whole lot of tries unfortunately). Add rushing enemies, loud noises, confusion, fear, etc, and you're going to have a lot less effective fragging. If arty and small arms really are nerfed to account for tight groupings, then grenades should as well.

[John Kettler]

My now retired brother told me about his Army grenade training class. Seems few were paying much attention until the instructor doffed his upper uniform and stripped to the waist, revealing a terrifying mass of scars all over his torso. When he explained this was the result of a grenade accident, he had their complete and total focus all through the lecture, and people were really on the ball once on the grenade range, too. As for lethality, super soldier Anthony Herbert used to say that if you had your helmet on, were pointed toward it and prone, a grenade placed an arm's length in front of you on the ground wouldn't really hurt you if it detonated. Am unsure, though whether this statement, which is found in Soldier, was based on the classic American pineapple grenade or the later M26 frag.

Regards,

John Kettler

[c3k]

Having thrown several (not many, just several) frag grenades (and some other non-HE types) I am very convinced of their efficacy for disabling combatants - IN THE REAL WORLD. I am NOT convinced that CMSF models them correctly for the game. Emphasis on "the game". Given the tight infantry formations which are unrealistic, the grenades should, IMO (H or otherwise), be nerfed a bit.

Ken

[hoolaman]

All HE is "nerfed", grenades included.

[Elmar Bijlsma]

As for lethality, super soldier Anthony Herbert used to say that if you had your helmet on, were pointed toward it and prone, a grenade placed an arm's length in front of you on the ground wouldn't really hurt you if it detonated. Am unsure, though whether this statement, which is found in Soldier, was based on the classic American pineapple grenade or the later M26 frag.

I think you'll find this statement is entirely based on bullcrap.

The M1 based helmets in use during his time in the army can't be regarded as much more then a morale boosting device. I've seen some helmets exposed to shrapnel and pistol shots and have come to the conclusion one shouldn't trust them to be able to stop a thrown marshmallow.

On modern equipment: I wouldn't try it. Asides from being unsure as to how much the newer helmets would actually stop, there's all kinds of soft bits sticking out.

[c3k]

Yeah, and if you've ever been even close to a modern grenade going off, you'd never even think to try it. The concussive effect of such a small device is quite impressive.

If I told you that a 16 lb. sledgehammer swung by an (angry) NFL lineman with all his strength cannot dent a modern helmet, does that mean you'd be unharmed if you were wearing the helmet when it was hit? Of course not. Feel free to prove me wrong.

Although I'm still quite miffed at all my 4 man casualty piles laying about the battlefield. It looks sloppy.

Ken

[LUCASWILLEN05]

When I have zoomed in to watch a close range grenade fight what seems to happen is you get two or three men from a squad each lobbing a grenade. Of course, you don't choose when a squad throws grenades, the program does that for you. Amd of course there is a limited amount of grenades each squad has available. Troops only throw grenades when they really need to do so, such as against a dug in enemy or one in a built up area.

So far as bunching is concerned maybe there is an issue there. However, the degree to which men bunch up in the game might be influenced by the current order they are operating under. Maybe closer observation of this would shed more light on the issue?

Luke

[Tuomio]

Helmets are actually protection against low mass objects which will be abundant when explosives are involved. Many of them could kill or cause disabling injury without adequate shock absorber, which are the nylon bands underneath.

Head has special functions when it comes to fighting, you can take beating anywhere else but not there (well, your "other" head aside). I believe that the description about helmet against frag could be true, most of the objects coming towards would be piles of dirt, rocks etc., lacking penetrating power but otherwise lethal against skull. They are secondary fragments, caused by shock blast and/or primary fragments.

Against veteran troops (resistant to blast waves and noise) outdoors with small cover, i think that grenades would be less effective than shooting unless you are very good throw.

[vincere]

I'm wondering if the volley effect is linked to squad experience? Would seem logical that crack troops would behave in this way more often, and in room clearance.

It's a tricky one. In contrast I sometimes think that Red don't volley their RPGs as much as some of the video footage sometimes shows.

[noxnoctum]

So why are squads tighter than they would be in real life? Is it too hard to program a bigger dispersion?

[Elmar Bijlsma]

That, but mostly it requires more system resources to keep track of everyone if they are spread all over different tiles. Spotting is pretty CPU intensive and if a squad of eight men is in eight action spots instead of two or three, that increases the workload substantially.

[c3k]

Yes, the artificial formation tightness is a coding requirement (apparently), but I think is also aids gameplay. You can see at a glance which guys are in the same unit. If they were scattered all over, it would be very hard to discern which unit was where (without a clickfest to identify everyone). So, artificial tightness is fine.

The "nerfing" of HE seems to work very well within those parameters, as well. There have been enough postings by folks who have worked with artillery to state with a high level of confidence that the game artillery is too responsive and too accurate (with exceptions, as always). Given that, "nerfing" artillery compensates for the responsiveness, accuracy, and the lack of dispersion of the infantry. The same for vehicle HE. It's all part of the same issue.

Given the volley nature of hand grenade use, and the tightness of infantry formations, one grenade consistently will land in midst of four men and wound/kill them all. It's the consistency of that occurance which I think is troublesome. Once in a while, sure; in tight terrain, I can almost guarantee the advancing side will take a quartet of WIA/KIA from a single grenade. No tactic overcomes that.

Ken

[Secondbrooks]

And yes YankeeDog, tossing a frag is harder than it looks. I was surprised in training how many people had trouble throwing them. (Ofcourse we didn't get a whole lot of tries unfortunately). Add rushing enemies, loud noises, confusion, fear, etc, and you're going to have a lot less effective fragging. If arty and small arms really are nerfed to account for tight groupings, then grenades should as well.

Yeah. I agree with this quite 100%. I've tossed just one live grenade (didn't hit the target), but during basics we threw alot of practice ones. There are conditions in which use of grenades does work, and then there are conditions in which they don't work. I was pretty good (=average) thrower in trench clearing drills, where throwing distances were something like 5-10 meters and you had clear target at which you did throw it. If distance grew to 20-30 meters i generally didn't hit enough close to reliably take out target with small cover (lying in ground, possibly in some small nook)... If target would have been in foxhole or similar cover my changes to hit clearly visible cartboard target which didn't fire at me were pretty thin. Well i've always been bad thrower. Were it snowball, rock, grenade or baseball. I guess it was usual to have designated throwers atleast during ww2 from accounts which i've read.

Grenades do cause horrible casualties in CMSF, but many times it's result of closer of 10 grenades thrown as one volley that is my observation atleast. Main "problem" is that they do use their grenades very eagerly. It's not surprising if my men use all their grenades during one volley (which has devastating effect i admit).

When in reality use of grenades seems to be much more conserving. When from accounts which i've read soldier/squad uses one or couple grenades but in CMSF they have used most of what they have. And use of grenades is also much more common. Only requirement seems to be that enemy is within 30 meters, while in reality there probably are many factors such as type of cover in which enemy is and can it be hit with direct fire, is enemy's position precisely known (foxhole, bunker etc), can thrower prepare to throw his grenade (not under fire), is there natural obstacles in way.

Naturally there's problem in fact that CMSF doesn't have drills. When one common drill would be to throw couple hand grenades and charge right after they explode and rest of that fight is finished with small arms fire. In CMSF they do use grenades all the time, from before charging, during charging, seizing positions after (successful) charge and even after that until target order gets canceled.

[c3k]

I'd love a sound file, "Frag out!" each time a grenade is thrown.

[vincere]

Drifting off topic slightly but more sound files in general strikes me a low cost way of bumping up the immersion. It's one area that remains quite poor.

[noxnoctum]

I'd love more chatter in general as well. Seems to me like it would be one of the easiest things to implement and could significantly improve immersion.

[Dietrich]

The foremost instance of inordinate grenade-throwing that I've seen was in a pre-v.1.20 playing of the third mission in the "Semper Fi, Syria!" campaign: While crossing the gulley on the left flank, the ten or so men in a USMC rifle squad jogged past a lone cowering Syrian infantryman, then stopped in mid run and each threw at least one grenade at him.

Would having two men throw one grenade each (so as to conserve grenades and use them more efficiently) be more characteristic of a well-motivated veteran squad or of poorly-motivated green squad? Perhaps the number of grenades thrown at a time could be tied to order type. A squad given a Target order at enemy infantry 35 meters away could have several men throw grenades in a volley, whereas a squad with a Target Light order could have just one or two men throw grenades.

It would accord with real-life practice (wouldn't it?) if Blue infantry shouted "Frag out!" when throwing grenades and "Grenade!" when taking cover from enemy frags. Another boost to immersion would be two sets of voice files -- a normal-volume set for when troops are observing or on the move, and a high-intensity shouted set for when troops are in actual combat.

[Thomm]

What is interesting is that the reduction of the HE effects only makes sense if the units actually are bunched up! In the case of isolated, lone soldiers it gives an unrealistic advantage to the soldier under attack.

Best regards,

Thomm

[akd]

Yeah. I agree with this quite 100%. I've tossed just one live grenade (didn't hit the target), but during basics we threw alot of practice ones. There are conditions in which use of grenades does work, and then there are conditions in which they don't work. I was pretty good (=average) thrower in trench clearing drills, where throwing distances were something like 5-10 meters and you had clear target at which you did throw it. If distance grew to 20-30 meters i generally didn't hit enough close to reliably take out target with small cover (lying in ground, possibly in some small nook)... If target would have been in foxhole or similar cover my changes to hit clearly visible cartboard target which didn't fire at me were pretty thin. Well i've always been bad thrower. Were it snowball, rock, grenade or baseball. I guess it was usual to have designated throwers atleast during ww2 from accounts which i've read.

Grenades do cause horrible casualties in CMSF, but many times it's result of closer of 10 grenades thrown as one volley that is my observation atleast. Main "problem" is that they do use their grenades very eagerly. It's not surprising if my men use all their grenades during one volley (which has devastating effect i admit).

When in reality use of grenades seems to be much more conserving. When from accounts which i've read soldier/squad uses one or couple grenades but in CMSF they have used most of what they have. And use of grenades is also much more common. Only requirement seems to be that enemy is within 30 meters, while in reality there probably are many factors such as type of cover in which enemy is and can it be hit with direct fire, is enemy's position precisely known (foxhole, bunker etc), can thrower prepare to throw his grenade (not under fire), is there natural obstacles in way.

Naturally there's problem in fact that CMSF doesn't have drills. When one common drill would be to throw couple hand grenades and charge right after they explode and rest of that fight is finished with small arms fire. In CMSF they do use grenades all the time, from before charging, during charging, seizing positions after (successful) charge and even after that until target order gets canceled.

Yes, the grenade spamming makes clearing structures in a realistic manner pretty impossible. The only way to prepare a room is with a target order, which typically uses the unit's entire supply of grenades (on one room, and when you have an entire block to clear!), and wastes a bunch of small arms (as the fire goes on long after the room is cleared, even with extreme real time micromanagement.

What I'd like to see is a context sensitive assault order where if the final stretch of the assault order is given from within grenade range of the unit and into a definable "structure" (building, trench, fortification), 1 or 2 grenades are lobbed before the final first team assault movement is executed. Obvious problem: the assault order is not available to units that can't be further broken down into teams, but I don't see why this has to be so (yea for context sensitive commands).

Obviously there would be certain situations where the same action would be useful but no structure is present, but personally I have never wanted my squad to use every grenade on a single room, and I have never run into a situation outside of structure/trench clearance where I felt the need to force grenade use through a target command.

[c3k]

Aye, that's a LOT of good logic. The raining of grenades to clear a single structure (which may have several rooms which are abstracted) wastes too many of these valuable munitions. If it's a single-story structure, the unit starts throwing them before they enter. Many end up on the roof. That's a bit, err, undesirable.

I don't want a specific GRENADE target order. That would swing the pendulum too far. A bit of a TacAI tweak would be nice.

Ken

[akd]

Add stone/concrete fences/walls and (hypothetically for next title) hedgerows to the list above, but only if the grenade-distance assault leg crosses the structure (rather than entering, as with buildings and trenches), so that units moving up to cover don't waste grenades on the side already in their line of fire.

[gibsonm]

And yes YankeeDog, tossing a frag is harder than it looks. I was surprised in training how many people had trouble throwing them. (Of course we didn't get a whole lot of tries unfortunately).

Personally I love throwing them - especially the old M-26. these are designed for a right hander to throw and the clip sits usually in the palm of the hand.

Of course being left handed means to achieve the same layout (required for safety) you have to hold the grenade upside down (with the pin now at the bottom).

Its great watching the colour drain from the Bay NCO's face when you stroll in and calmly tell them that you are a "lefty".