"Red" Casualties

[Cpl Steiner]

I read this report on the fighting and casualties in Helmand in operation "Panther's Claw" and have been haunted by it ever since.

Telegraph Article

Here's a quote:

"In one attack an officer lost an arm, both legs and his genitals, but survived through the excellent medical care."

Poor bastard! It makes you realise what all those "red" casualties in CM:SF might actually represent. I used to always kind of feel less guilty if I suffered a "red" casualty rather than a "brown" but whenever I see a red one now I think maybe he's lost a leg - or his nuts!

I really hope that officer referred to in the article can find the mental strength somehow to carry on and make the best of the rest of his life - and it really brings home why politicians should be SO VERY sure they know what they are doing before they send our young people off to war.

[Apocalypse 31]

I dont feel guilty for them. Even in real life

[Other Means]

I dont feel guilty for them. Even in real life

You know he means own side wounded that are red rather than yellow or black?

[mike_the_wino]

Good on the Brits! The removal of the Taliban will be a great thing for Afghanistan but it is a heavy price to pay for the British soldiers and their families.

Cpl Steiner,

By 'red' casuality are you referring to wounded versus KIA? Or are you referring to 'red' versus 'blue'? If the former then I concur, if the latter then I don't care one bit.

[zmoney]

You know he means own side wounded that are red rather than yellow or black?

Im pretty sure LT misunderstood what the subject is about or at least I hope so.

[Cpl Steiner]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure LT Mike thought I was referring to casualties suffered by the "RED" side as compared to the "BLUE" side. I was of course actually referring to casualties that go red in the game as opposed to yellow or brown. I suppose my wording could have been better.

[Vark]

Cpl Steiner, your comments remind me of the threads looking at the impact 1 to 1 representation has had on gamers of SF. It might also be a case that with gamers personally knowing of people fighting and the conflict (Afghanistan, Iraq) in the news constantly, that there is a greater sensitivity to casualty representation in their games.

Following this train of thought I wonder if playing Normandy, and similar games, will help younger generations to better understand the nightmare of that war, given the veterans of that conflict are now dying off.

Final thought when we get to play Normandy and look at those little crosses and what they represent, taken from http://www.bayonetstrength.150m.com/.

The diary entry of Private Jim Wisewell, 223 Field Ambulance, RAMC, describing the carnage wrought upon 185 Brigade of 3rd (British) Division during 8th July, 1944 in operation Charnwood.

"At 5 am, the first wounded came back, cheerful, optimistic. We splintered fractures, covered wounds with sterile dressings and relieved each other for breakfast at 6.30 am. As the day wore on, sunny and scorching hot, the tide of casualties rose. Dozens and dozens were carried in. Our treatment centre always had 3 upon the trestles being attended to and soon the approaches were lined with a queue. Hour after hour we worked and evacuated and still the flow continued. Ghastly wounds there were, of every type and state of severity. Heads with skulls so badly smashed that bone and brain and pillow were almost indivisible; faces with horrible lacerations; jaws blown completely away leaving only two sad eyes to plead for relief from pain. Chests pierced through with shrapnel and lungs that spouted blood from gushing holes. Arms were mangled into shapeless masses left hanging by muscle alone and waiting the amputation knife. There were abdomens pierced by shell splinters and displaying coils of intestine, deadly wounds. Buttocks were torn and in some cases spinal injury had followed bringing paralysis. But the leg wounds! Thigh bones splinted; knees without knee caps, legs without feet red, mangled flesh and blood flooding the stretcher. And others trembling uncontrollably, sobbing like children, strapped to the stretcher and struggling to be free; screaming and, when a shell landed near the ADS (Advance Dressing Station), shouting, 'They're coming again, O God they're coming again.' Not heroes, but sufferers nonetheless. We ate our lunch of biscuits and corned beef with bloody fingers and when relieved by 9th Field Ambulance at 6 pm we had treated 466 British soldiers and 40 Germans."

[Apocalypse 31]

Im pretty sure LT misunderstood what the subject is about or at least I hope so.

Ah. Yes...I was talking about RED FORCES in game.

Too add to the original post. CASEVAC in real life....well..I'm not sure where to begin. I dont have time to type out a description of how it goes, but its EXTREMELY complicated. The amount of man power that must be dedicated per casalty is pretty crazy.

We could have that represented in game, but I'm sure 99% of your gameplay would be dedicated to getting a few guys out of the fight.

[Battlefront.com]

I saw a presentation by the lead surgeon of one of the intermediary surgery stations in Iraq. He was there in 2003/2004. It is a very complicated thing which is unbelievable. IIRC they could get someone to Walter Reed Army Medical Center, in the US, from any point in Iraq within something like 12 hours. I don't have my notes here, but it's something close to that. Going from memory (so don't quote me on this!)...

Casualty is initially treated by buddies. Assigned medics take over from there and evacuate the wounded if the wound is serious enough. Dedicated medical personnel stabilize the patient along the way to the closest major treatment facility. Usually this takes 1-3 hours, depending on location and other difficulties. Simple stuff, of course, can be dealt with completely at that facility. At the time in Iraq there were 3 of these.

For major stuff their job is to get the patient stabilized for transport to a bigger facility. Again, dedicated transport with skilled staff keep the patient alive until getting to a major facility. In Iraq at the time there was one of these. There they would decide what to do with the patient.

Serious burns, major mangled limbs that might be saved, spinal injuries, brain injuries, etc. caused the patient to be put onboard a specialized C-130 and flown to Ramstein AFB in Germany. Certain cases are treated there, but the really bad ones were further stabilized and then put on a plane to Walter Reed. Again, with dedicated medical staff onboard. Walter Reed has all the specialists needed to treat anything they experience.

It's absolutely amazing, but it does give people a false impression of the seriousness of the WIA count. The KIA count would be much higher without this massive effort, and that means a large number of the WIAs have massive injuries. A friend of mine lost both legs after stepping on a pressure plate IED in Afghanistan... he's listed in the same column as a guy who took a small shell fragment to the buttocks. It isn't in the military's best interest to create new categories from a PR standpoint.

Steve

[bodkin]

I feel the WIA/KIA ratio is not accurate in the game, it seems that quite often KIA's are more than WIA for Red and Blue. In most examples of warfare over the last 100 years the ratio of KIA to WIA seems to be at least 1:3 in the worst case scenario.

[Apocalypse 31]

I saw a presentation by the lead surgeon of one of the intermediary surgery stations in Iraq. He was there in 2003/2004. It is a very complicated thing which is unbelievable. IIRC they could get someone to Walter Reed Army Medical Center, in the US, from any point in Iraq within something like 12 hours. I don't have my notes here, but it's something close to that. Going from memory (so don't quote me on this!)...

Casualty is initially treated by buddies. Assigned medics take over from there and evacuate the wounded if the wound is serious enough. Dedicated medical personnel stabilize the patient along the way to the closest major treatment facility. Usually this takes 1-3 hours, depending on location and other difficulties. Simple stuff, of course, can be dealt with completely at that facility. At the time in Iraq there were 3 of these.

For major stuff their job is to get the patient stabilized for transport to a bigger facility. Again, dedicated transport with skilled staff keep the patient alive until getting to a major facility. In Iraq at the time there was one of these. There they would decide what to do with the patient.

Serious burns, major mangled limbs that might be saved, spinal injuries, brain injuries, etc. caused the patient to be put onboard a specialized C-130 and flown to Ramstein AFB in Germany. Certain cases are treated there, but the really bad ones were further stabilized and then put on a plane to Walter Reed. Again, with dedicated medical staff onboard. Walter Reed has all the specialists needed to treat anything they experience.

It's absolutely amazing, but it does give people a false impression of the seriousness of the WIA count. The KIA count would be much higher without this massive effort, and that means a large number of the WIAs have massive injuries. A friend of mine lost both legs after stepping on a pressure plate IED in Afghanistan... he's listed in the same column as a guy who took a small shell fragment to the buttocks. It isn't in the military's best interest to create new categories from a PR standpoint.

Steve

I had the unfortunate chance to go to the Combat Support Hospital in central Baghdad during my time in Iraq. Inside, you wouldnt be able to tell the difference between a hospital in the states and the Baghdad Hospital.

Seeing this, and knowing this is/was a huge morale boost for the Soldiers.

Thankfully both of my trips to the CSH (combat support hospital) were for Iraqi HVT's injured, but thats another story.

ALSO - I would recommend any wargamer to watch a show called 'BAGHDAD ER'. Its a 1 hour HBO documentary about a Baghdad Combat Support Hospital. You get an idea of how violent weapons are and see first hand effects. It changes your perspective on things.

[Battlefront.com]

The ratios in the game are quite realistic. Back in WW2 it was about 3 wounded for every 1 killed. Vietnam was about 6 wounded for every 1 killed. Overall Iraq has been 7 wounded for every 1 dead since the start of the conflict.

The monthly numbers for Iraq and Afghanistan are all over the place, however, because the types of attacks produce wildly different types of casualties. For example, a Humvee hitting a 122mm HE IED round is probably going to result in 100% fatalities within the vehicle and probably 0% for anybody nearby. If a month is relatively calm and most casualties came from such attacks, then the KIA number will be higher proportional to WIA. If most of the casualties came from a big offensive, like Fallujah, then the ratio would likely favor WIA. For example, the overall casualty rate during April 2004 (Fallujah I) the ratio was 9 wounded for every 1 killed.

The wounded in CM:SF range from light to serious. Red doesn't have the same advantages in terms of body armor and medical care. Therefore, wounds tend to be more serious and their results more fatal, but also medium wounded are more likely to die on the battlefield than would be for the same wound on a Blue soldier. Syrian Special Forces, at least, do have body armor and therefore they are an exception.

It is also true that the attacker tends to have initially higher casualties than the defender, but if successful the defender often winds up with the higher total for the entire battle. In Iraq and Afghanistan Blue picks and chooses when the big fights happen, so it has the advantage of superior force and firepower way beyond what would be possible in a conventional fight. Obviously the Insurgents pick and choose when ambushes and IEDs are employed, but they have to go after isolated targets, which therefore restricts their ability to cause casualties. When they do try larger actions they always get crushed far in excess of the casualties they cause. Which is why you rarely see any large scale attacks, even in Afghanistan, as of late.

Steve

[Battlefront.com]

Lt. Mike,

The presentation I saw came complete with a slide show. I've got a pretty strong stomach, but I had to talk myself out of leaving the room. The exit wounds of some of the rounds used... well, even Quentin Tarantino's movies look Rated G compared to that mess.

Steve

[Apocalypse 31]

Lt. Mike,

The presentation I saw came complete with a slide show. I've got a pretty strong stomach, but I had to talk myself out of leaving the room. The exit wounds of some of the rounds used... well, even Quentin Tarantino's movies look Rated G compared to that mess.

Steve

Tell me about it, brother! I saw the Baghdad ER documentry the NIGHT I found out I was going to Iraq. Had to turn it off during some parts. Was brutal.

For example, the overall casualty rate during April 2004 (Fallujah I) the ratio was 9 wounded for every 1 killed.

Also take into account those wounded that were returned to duty the next day or next few hours.

[Gpig]

@Steve,

I believe Bodkin and yourself are in agreement on casualty ratios. He states he'd expect 1 KIA to 3 WIA in his post. But he started out saying that in CMSF, it's more like 2 KIA to 1 wounded.

I'd have to agree, that in my experience with CMSF, I often have close to twice as many KIA as I do WIA. Even in battles with no vehicle crews burning up.

Gpig

[Lethaface]

I dont feel guilty for them. Even in real life

This little piece of info just dropped the respect I have for you below zero.

The sad thoughts that must be goin through your mind, pathetic.

Im sorry if im too harsh here but cmon, get a life. Humans are humans no matter where you from or who you fight for.

If you feel bad about a blue soldier losing his balls, but feel happy about a red soldier losing his, you haven't understood ANYTHING about life. I think you should put down the wargame and pick up the barbie doll to learn about some 'love'.

Bleh, the first time i'm disgusted on this forum.

EDIT; Im looking for ways to understand you different but I cant. This is apart from the war thing; ofcourse you dont feel guilty about blowing the enemy up one way or the other. But if you really think its good or satisfying that any individual, either side, suffers so hard and loses life in such a way; in my eyes your nothing more then an animal.

I hope I understand you completely wrong, in which case I regress and regret.

[Apocalypse 31]

If you feel bad about a blue soldier losing his balls, but feel happy about a red soldier losing his, you haven't understood ANYTHING about life. I think you should put down the wargame and pick up the barbie doll to learn about some 'love'.

Hey man. Didnt say I LIKE it. In fact, I've brought 'them' to get fixed up at our hospitals.

I just dont feel remorse for them. It has nothing to do with who they are. The bottom line is that a dead insurgent is one less guy thats going to threaten the lives of the good guys.

[DaveDash]

This little piece of info just dropped the respect I have for you below zero.

The sad thoughts that must be goin through your mind, pathetic.

Im sorry if im too harsh here but cmon, get a life. Humans are humans no matter where you from or who you fight for.

If you feel bad about a blue soldier losing his balls, but feel happy about a red soldier losing his, you haven't understood ANYTHING about life. I think you should put down the wargame and pick up the barbie doll to learn about some 'love'.

Bleh, the first time i'm disgusted on this forum.

EDIT; Im looking for ways to understand you different but I cant. This is apart from the war thing; ofcourse you dont feel guilty about blowing the enemy up one way or the other. But if you really think its good or satisfying that any individual, either side, suffers so hard and loses life in such a way; in my eyes your nothing more then an animal.

I hope I understand you completely wrong, in which case I regress and regret.

I imagine you'd have 0 respect for most soldiers that you meet then. A lot of them seem to cheer every time insurgents get blown to bits by JDAMs etc.

I imagine it would be quite difficult to actually get your men to fight a war if they felt sad every time they engaged and destroyed the enemy. It's war, not cuddle puddles. And yeah, it's quite animalistic isn't it?

Humans have been glorifying killing each other since the dark ages. You can either go through life being disgusted or realise that in the great scheme of things, we're not so different from animals, we just like to pretend we are by putting metaframes around everything.

Everything you do is for animalistic purposes, survival and replication, the fancy car you buy, the makeup your girlfriend/wife puts on, whatever. It aint gonna change sunshine. The sooner you realise this the less you will go through life being dissapointed and disgusted.

[MikeyD]

I'm trying to recall an old discussion about KIA to WIA in the game. The high Blue KIA numbers might be assuming a high proportion of head shots since most everything else is protected. Either a fatal hit or nothing. Red KIA might assume inadequate access to wounded care, which was true of Iraq after the country collapsed entirely in '04, but might be somewhat pessimistic for our Syrians fighting in urban areas. Even poor little Gaza is able to provide a degree of emergency care to its wounded.

[dan/california]

When you count WIA vs KIA are you including the guys with yellow bases, that could continue the fight in game terms? If my understanding is at all correct many if not most of them would probably qualify as wounded in standard military statistics. I am almost certain they don't show as WIA on the end scenario screen.

[MikeyD]

DaveDash, may I respectfully suggest you pick up the book "Achilles in Vietnam: Combat trauma and the undoing of character" by Dr. Jonathan Shay, M.D., PhD. It should be a must-read for any returning veteran. The man got a standing ovation after giving lecture at the Pentagon a couple years ago. He knows what he's talking about. Seriously.

[Battlefront.com]

Most soldiers I've come into contact with, and read memoirs of, do not like the fact that they are killing people. In fact, they usually regret it quite deeply. However, they tend to have no remorse for killing people who, if given a chance, would have killed them or (in the case of many Insurgents) the innocent. It's a strange mix, but it's how our brains are wired. The ones who do like killing, in general terms, are not the norm. Thankfully.

I'm sure that if you asked the average soldier if he would rather not kill someone the answer would be a theoretical "yes". But if the soldier is asked if he would rather not kill someone who is trying to harm him, his country, or the innocents he is trying to protect, the answer will almost certainly be "no". And that is the way it should be. Anybody who hasn't been a soldier in a war zone shouldn't presume that it should be otherwise.

Steve

[Battlefront.com]

dan/california,

When you count WIA vs KIA are you including the guys with yellow bases, that could continue the fight in game terms? If my understanding is at all correct many if not most of them would probably qualify as wounded in standard military statistics. I am almost certain they don't show as WIA on the end scenario screen.

That's the way I remember it being set up as well.

However, it is entirely realistic to have the KIA and WIA ratios be pretty close even for Blue. As I said, it has a lot to do with the type of engagement you wind up in and, of course, luck. June of 2008 the US lost 30 personnel KIA and 39 WIA. That is almost 1:1. Several months of similar sized casualties (800-1000) it was 1:4 and 1:5, while other months it was 1:11. Pretty wide spread there. And these are including light casualties that required some amount of medical treatment.

Steve

[Apocal]

There is a high percentage of Syrian killed to wounded in my games because I generally continue shooting known occupied positions. At some point those occupying the positions become wounded and if I don't turn off the hate, pain and discontent, they become dead.

[DaveDash]

DaveDash, may I respectfully suggest you pick up the book "Achilles in Vietnam: Combat trauma and the undoing of character" by Dr. Jonathan Shay, M.D., PhD. It should be a must-read for any returning veteran. The man got a standing ovation after giving lecture at the Pentagon a couple years ago. He knows what he's talking about. Seriously.

Thanks, I will check it out.

My comment was not meant to glorify death or killing in any way.

There is a high percentage of Syrian killed to wounded in my games because I generally continue shooting known occupied positions. At some point those occupying the positions become wounded and if I don't turn off the hate, pain and discontent, they become dead.

This is true for me also. I generally pound known Syrian positions with massive amounts of direct and indirect fire as to keep my own boys safe.