Gaza Strip

[Cpl Steiner]

Although not really related to CM:SF this is a map showing the current military situation in the Gaza Strip. It makes you realise just how small a patch of land it really is!

Map of Gaza Strip (PDF)

P.S. - Please don't turn this into a political thread; I just thought the map was interesting from a general "middle-east conflict-zone" point of view.

[Guest Guest]

deleted per user request

[Elmar Bijlsma]

What IS the point of this thread? You thought the map was interesting? How so? It's pretty marginal information wise. Relevance to CMSF=nil and the chance of discussing the Gaza situation without touching on politics is in that same nil region too.

Here's a tip: If you need to twice justify your post, re-consider posting it.

[panzermartin]

You forgot the red X markers for the hundreds killed. Yellow for the wounded

[Cpl Steiner]

From a general middle east point of view, they are very small. Much smaller than Israel, for example.

..and yet the Israelis are terrified of using ground troops and prefer to bomb it from the air - presumably because this "tiny" area would cause them a lot of hurt if they sent in ground forces. This is a military point, not a political one, and has relevance to CM:SF.

What IS the point of this thread? You thought the map was interesting? How so? It's pretty marginal information wise.

You would be surprised how few people actually realise how small this area is. I bet it's news to even a few people on this forum. Isn't this worth stating?

Relevance to CMSF=nil

I disagree.

and the chance of discussing the Gaza situation without touching on politics is in that same nil region too.

Here's a tip: If you need to twice justify your post, re-consider posting it.

Point taken. This was probably not one of my better ideas.

You forgot the red X markers for the hundreds killed. Yellow for the wounded

..the suggestion being, I guess, that I'm some sort of insensitive war lover who doesn't care about real people being killed or injured. Well, of course I do. I shouldn't need to state this actually.

The trouble with these sorts of threads is this. This is a wargaming forum not a political one, but there is obviously a lot of cross-over between military matters and politics. If you try to leave out the politics you can come over as being insensitive, which is not the case at all. I was just trying to show how such a small area can be so problematic in military terms to a very powerful modern army. The Israelis still haven't sent in ground troops yet, presumably because they believe they'd suffer a lot of casualties. Considering how small the area is, that is significant - to my mind at least.

[MikeyD]

If you've got Google Map loaded on your PC take a low pass over the Gaza Strip area. Reminds that this is a real place, not just an abstraction. VERY small, VERY crowded, VERY built-up. And surrounded by 20 foot concrete walls.

[rich12545]

Israel is about the size of New Jersey. Pretty small considering the size of their enemies in the area.

Gaza is small. But their sponsor in terror, Iran, isn't. And you don't have to be real big to conduct terror attacks.

Here's an fyi Cpl Steiner. The Israelis aren't terrified of using ground troops. They are building up as we speak and might still. However, if their Air Force can make their goal, which is to stop Hamas from shooting rockets into Israel and have a real cease fire, so much the better.

[Pvt. Ryan]

I don't think those tanks are to scale.

[purpheart23]

I'm not sure there even tanks. Looks kinda like some sorta IFV. The way were talking about the place though they may be to scale.

[MikeyD]

"But their sponsor in terror..."

There's plenty of terror committed by all parties in that part of the world to spread the epithet around. The only difference between a suicide bomber blowing up a police building and a Hellfire missile blowing up a police building is the bomber couldn't afford to purchase the Apache helicopter.

[rich12545]

You're wrong. Terror is in intent. Hamas targets civilians. Israel targets military targets. There's a world of difference between war and terrorism.

[thewood]

The key word is deliberate. Terror is the deliberate targeting of civilians to deliberatly cause civilian casualties with no pure military value in the act. Killing civilians who live next door to a military/government functional area is not terror. It may be a war crime, depending on planning, etc. The indiscriminate killing or wounding of civilians with no military value when other means exist in the planning by a state or individual trying force political change is terror.

Before Hamas became a quasi goverment, it was using strictly terror-based means. Now, it is a little more gray because of the question of their rocket attacks being state sanctioned. It probably is truly terror-based, but some could argue it is a formal act of war, not terror.

If Hamas is a government, and it sanctions the indiscriminate firing of military hardware into Isreal, Isreal has every right to defend itself. Even Hamas admits the majority of Isreal's airstrikes have been security and government structures. To me its pretty much straight up a formal war and Isreal has every right to use its full resources.

I don't think every one of Isreal's reactions over the last few years has been so clear cut, but Hamas has put itself in a bad position to make Isreal look like it is defending itself.

[Rafik63]

After reading the last post, i think the thread is getting a bit skewed. You're opening up massive debate thats going to lead into "the war on terror :Right or wrong?" etc.

On topic though, Gaza is absolutely tiny, friends of mine that have been to gaza can't describe how densely packed it is. Militarily speaking it would be an absolute nightmare, especially after the bombing. The populance after all the civilian deaths are far from friendly and I'd imagine the movement through the streets would pose a quite potent threat from attacks. I suppose though it depends on the intentions of the IDF if they were to move troops into Gaza itself.

Regards

Salam

[cmfan]

Heh, this reminds me why an IDF expansion module would be such a can of worms.

Sample units:

IDF: Bulldozer

Palestinians: 12 year old kid with a rock.

[purpheart23]

Heh, this reminds me why an IDF expansion module would be such a can of worms.

Sample units:

IDF: Bulldozer

Palestinian: 12 year old kid with a rock.

That's one of the most jacked up posts I've read in a while .

[Rafik63]

Good lord!! Admin! Admin!

Lol

Guys you've beaten the topic and its crying in the corner now.

[rich12545]

After reading the last post, i think the thread is getting a bit skewed. You're opening up massive debate thats going to lead into "the war on terror :Right or wrong?" etc.

On topic though, Gaza is absolutely tiny, friends of mine that have been to gaza can't describe how densely packed it is. Militarily speaking it would be an absolute nightmare, especially after the bombing. The populance after all the civilian deaths are far from friendly and I'd imagine the movement through the streets would pose a quite potent threat from attacks. I suppose though it depends on the intentions of the IDF if they were to move troops into Gaza itself.

Regards

Salam

Tough. All Hamas has to do to stop Israel from bombing is stop the rockets and extend the cease fire truce (but this time stick to it). That doesn't seem like a lot to ask.

[cmfan]

Cool. Hamas stops its rocket attacks, Israel stops its months long blockade of fuel, food, etc. to the Gaza strip and tears down the wall.

It's all so simple.

Gentlemen, we have brought peace to the middle east.

If the world only had more CM gamers!

[Smaragdadler]

[BlackMoria]

Getting back on topic, while the Gaza strip is quite small, Google Earth gives you are real appreciation of how hard a nut to crack it is since about 85% of the area is all urban built up terrain. And conventional force ratios for urban combat start at 10:1 so you need 10 soldiers for every urban defender as a minimum...

[Cuirassier]

10:1? Where did you get that ratio? No attacker has achieved, or needed to achieve, a ratio that high. Even with attacker concentration I doubt local odds ratios have ever been that high in an urban fight. All attackers need is a continuous supply of HE and enough men in the logistical pipe to replace losses. High local concentrations of men aren't needed, and often just result in needless, extra casualties.

[Guest Guest]

deleted per user request

[Smaragdadler]

some combat footage from the ground (israeli perspective)

http://103.fm/programs/event.aspx?R8r06VQ=EHHL&c41t4nzVq=JK

[Battlefront.com]

I'm going to allow this thread to continue so long as it is somewhat related to CM:SF. And that is the part about asymmetric warfare that involves people with guns shooting other people with guns. We all know that war has a horrible spill over into civilians, so I don't see any reason to keep this thread around if that's the direction it goes in. Millions of other places to have heated exchanges about stuff which has nothing at all to do with CM:SF.

Steve

[panzermartin]

To be honest I think threads like that should be locked upon opening. Not only is in bad taste to talk about our hobby while things are fresh and ugly but the asymmetrical aspect of this conflict is too extreme to have any connection to CMSF. This is more asymmetrical than the Nazis invading the Warsaw ghetto.