14.5mm Gun on BTR 60

[Guardsman]

Hi, I'm currently playing Polyanskoe as the reds, but can't seem to get the BTR 60's to use their 14.5mm gun. Is it the case that because the only ammo is AP it will only fire at vehicles?

I would have thought that if you are under fire from buildings then you would use both the coax and the 14.5mm to supress/kill the enemy.

Any comments would be great,

Cheers, Darren

[redbear]

it won fire if it do not have HE ammo.

[SlapHappy]

I'm pretty sure I've had them fire the bigger gun at my infantry, but I'm not sure how the AI decides this. They seem to prefer the lighter machine gun.

[Roter Stern]

They do fire the HMG given the right circumstances ... what those circumstances are is hard to tell for sure. Aside from the obvious one such as ammo limitations, perhaps it's some form of "threat level" that the target must present to the vehicle before it opens up with the big guns.

Just like when tanks at some point decide to fire off their main gun at an infantry target, even though they were using the coax MG for the last minute or so.

Also, no such thing as 14.5mm HE rounds, so that's not the issue.

It'll be quite interesting to see how this will work when BMP-3s come out in the next module - those are armed with three 7.62mm MGs, a 30mm autocannon, and a 100mm smoothbore. Quite an arsenal for the AI to pick from.

[ February 19, 2008, 07:28 PM: Message edited by: The Louch ]

[John Kettler]

The Louch,

Per Wiki, HEI-T does exist for the KPVT. Since the Vladimorov is belt fed, I'd expect it to fire mixed

API-T and HEI-T, with the tungsten cored API-T probable in high threat environments. The Syrians can hardly be unaware that both the vanilla Bradley and Stryker were designed around a KPVT threat, though I'd bet it was the steel-cored earlier API-T

round.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KPV_heavy_machine_gun

Here's a handy chart of technical characteristics for "Syrian" APCs and IFVs. As you can see, the BTR-60 and advanced siblings carry only 500 rounds of KPVT ammo.

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/army/docs/st100-7/chapter03/C3II.htm

Regards,

John Kettler

[ February 19, 2008, 09:26 PM: Message edited by: John Kettler ]

[Guardsman]

Thanks for the replies guys.

I've played the mission most of the way through from both sides, that 14.5 just won't open up. It is only loaded with AP in this set up, but I find it unusual that they dont use it.

For those who have used these sort of weapons first hand, would AP be any good against buildings? I presume it would put a small hole right through it, and probably through anyone inside as well. For that reason I would expect the BTR's in the game to use them.

As for the comment about the BMP-3, this is perhaps another good reason why there should be the ability to chose which weapon a unit uses. i.e Main gun, coax or both, and also useful with sniper teams.

However, I'm sure that would require a mountain of code, and you can only have so much of a good thing.

Regards, Darren

[JasonC]

It is a simple machinegun like a 50 cal, they certainly don't need any special ammo to shoot at infantry or at buildings. Incideniary is slightly better anti-material vs. planes, and AP is slightly better anti-material vs. APCs, but there is maybe a dime's difference between them to start, and it is utterly ridiculous to worry about which round type vs. infantry targets. Any 50 cal and up bullet that hits a man is going to splatter him.

[Roter Stern]

Originally posted by John Kettler:

Per Wiki, HEI-T does exist for the KPVT.

Allow me to rephrase myself:

There is no such thing as 14.5mm HE rounds, in the game.

Not to mention that it's existence in the Soviet/Russian military is hardly the same thing as it's existence in Syria.

However I just tried playing with BTR-60 for the first time since v1.06 and I can't can't get them to fire the 14.5mm either. I'm also quite positive that before v1.06 I always had my BTR-60s in the Polyanskoe scenario run out of 14.5 ammo quicker than 7.62. How odd.

[Guardsman]

Thanks JasonC for the info.

Louch, I'm glad it's not just me, but disappointed that there appears to be a problem that has surfaced post 1.06. Poor guys at Battlefront, for ever two steps forward there is a step back.

Cheers, Darren

[gibsonm]

How about the BRDM 2 which has the same gun?

[Guardsman]

Well, decided to do a test today.

When encountering infantry only in buildings, both the BRDM and the BTR 60 only engage with coax. At no point does the main gun start firing.

Introduced some Hummers and the 14.5mm opened up no problem.

Seems that the Syrians don't agree with the general opinion here that using the 14.5 against infantry in buildings would be worth it!

Cheers, Darren

[Roter Stern]

Yeah it's a little odd, especially considering that infantry in a building is much better protected than infantry in a hummer...

[John Kettler]

The Louch,

While I take your point, those ancient BTR-60s are straight from the then Soviet Union and per Suvorov

(who commanded a Motorized Rifle Company at the time of the Czechoslovakian invasion in 1968) were previously stripped wholesale out of most of the Red Army to equip the "socialist bretheren" in Egypt and Syria, leaving the Red Army crippled in the APC department. Most of that gear went up in flames in the 1967 War.

Indeed, as he describes it in THE LIBERATORS, his was practically the only unit that had any BTR-60s in the entire Military District. Thus, it is entirely reasonable to expect Soviet supplied APCs to be firing Soviet ammo or its equivalent.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Roter Stern]

John, I'm not saying these Syrian 14.5s don't have HE ammo in real life - I'm saying they don't appear to have that ammo in the game

Also I noticed the behaviour has changed a bit in v1.07 - I had my BTRs actually open up with a quick 3-4 round burst of 14.5 every once in a while ... mainly when ever they spotted RPG teams, I think.

[JasonC]

JK - Actually the Russians had literally tens of thousands of APCs both wheeled and tracked, with all the second line divisions typically wheeled BTRs. More than they could even man, really. They made extensive use of wheeled BTRs in Afghanistan, despite their vulnerability in ambushes, because they are much roomier than the BMPs and anti tank firepower from an ATGM was simply not an issue.

[John Kettler]

The Louch,

Roger that. Am glad the problem's gotten somewhat better under 1.07.

JasonC,

I wasn't talking about the situation during and after the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. I was talking about the situation in 1968. He indicates quite clearly in THE LIBERATORS how scarce BTR-60s were and how insane their personnel loads were in the Red Army in consequence, as well as the cascading impacts on combat readiness and the vehicles taken from the civilian sector. It would appear that a great deal of the Red Army's striking power went up in flames in the Sinai and on the Golan Heights. If you haven't read this book, I highly recommend it.

Regards,

John Kettler

[LongLeftFlank]

Yes, it's a great book of short stories and Suvorov is a wonderful storyteller. But as for factual accuracy, well... who knows? Suvorov (Razun) has been known to use fact and opinion interchangeably in his work.

[John Kettler]

LongLeftFlank,

From what I could tell, he did a terrific job in that one and in his other stuff on the Cold War, so much so that I bought all of his books (INSIDE THE SOVIET ARMY, SPETSNAZ, INSIDE THE AQUARIUM, INSIDE SOVIET MILITARY INTELLIGENCE) and kept them at work in my library as a Soviet Threat Analyst, where I found them immensely valuable, not just in terms of information, but in understanding the culture, dynamics and mindset of the foe.

My understanding is that where Suvorov/Rezun got into big trouble was in his controversial "Stalin planned to attack Germany but Germany got there first" argument. I know of that argument, having read withering blasts against it, but the relevant book wasn't out in English last I checked. I know he also took some flak over the Spetsnaz matter, but I can tell you that many of the equipment details he gave were confirmed later in Afghanistan when the muj caught a Spetsnaz team encamped and wiped it out. Made for some great reading in SOLDIER OF FORTUNE magazine back then.

I still have that issue around here somewhere.

Further, I think people who didn't want to hear what he had to say about the Spetsnaz deliberately tried to discredit him by making it sound like he'd said ALL the Spetsnaz were the elite teams trained in deep cover ops, killing high officials, franging the White House with radio controlled bombs, etc. Having read the book, it's clear he made no such claim.

In closing, I look at his track record on the IT-1

Drakon TD and other martial juiciness here. If you haven't seen it yet, are you in for a treat!

http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=9;t=023403

Regards,

John Kettler

[Pandur]

When encountering infantry only in buildings, both the BRDM and the BTR 60 only engage with coax. At no point does the main gun start firing.

BMP1 has the same problem, at least i never saw it use its 73mm on buildings by itself.

they blast away in the open, even on single guys wich arent worth hiting with the maingun, but as soon as they are in houses its a no go. they just pepper with coax.

in 1.08 that is.

[slug88]

I've definately seen BTR's open up with their 14.5 on troops in buildings in 1.08. In fact I just ended a game about 5 minutes ago in which this occured. In my experience the only time they're reluctant to use the main gun is with area target orders.

[Pandur]

interessting! where that enemy ones or on your own side!?

sometimes that makes difference i feel...not sure though.

did you had a BMP1 shoot on buildings with infantry by itself so far, with more than the coax!?

thats actually the reason i made that post becouse they are reluctant as the BTR´s where, didnt knew BTR´s where fixed in 1.08, change log didnt said a thing.

[slug88]

The scenario I mentioned just now involved enemy BTR's using their main gun on buildings. I do believe that I've managed to get friendly BTR's do to the same, but I can't be absolutely certain. Regarding BMP-1's, I haven't seen them in action recently enough to say either way. BMP-2's on the other hand most definitely use their 30mm freely, whether the enemy is in a building or not.

[Pandur]

yes i can say it for sure for BMP2´s too. they are engageing normaly.

but i have a big scenario stuffed with BMP1 on the player side, and i didnt saw a BMP1 open up on a house with its maingun by itsef.

mind, thats a whole mech battalion and thats about 35 BMP1´s for the player.

if they would open up i would have seen it i belive

but i was forced to let em do the area fire dance.

[Mishga]

Remember to check ammo levels for the vehicles. I find if they are low on projectiles they are more reluctant to open up.

[Pandur]

thats right, but i am a WEGO player, no shot goes unnoticed!

means ALL BMPs had FULL ammo supplie and i wasnt able to get em to use their suppied stock other than by area fire.

i watch my units verry closely in the replay, non of their failures stays hidden for me