Marines Module update at Blogfront

[Battlefront.com]

Ah, yes... Thomm is correct. I misunderstood what icon z1812 was speaking of. But what I wrote is still accurate and should answer the question anyway

Steve

[Berto]

Is Marines Module independent of the operating system (Win, Mac OS X) ?

Or will be necessary to buy two Marines Module (one for Win and one for Mac OS X).

TIA

[Clavicula_Nox]

As you say, it's not an easy call to make one way or another. I agree with you that the door/body armor kits are never going to come off. The days of flimsy sheet metal Humvees are over and done with. The question is if all that top heavy stuff is going to go with the vehicles wherever they go from now on. I don't even think anybody in the Pentagon knows (and that shouldn't be surprising if true [Wink] ). For now, however, we're not planning on putting the gunner's coffin on any of the vehicles. We may change this in the future.

Alright, Steve, I'll leave you alone on this. You have sound reasons for it being how it is, I just wish my pixel gunners weren't human sacrifices.

[Splinty]

Steve I hate to do this, but Nox is right, you won't find an M1114 0r M1151 without a gunners coffin these days.

[YankeeDog]

Some of you guys are missing the point.

The question is not whether or not Humvees have gunner's coffins *now*, in the COIN operations in Iraq, but whether they'd still have the gunner's coffins installed for a high-tempo offensive operation against a foreign military, such as Syria.

As Steve has noted, while the gunner's coffins do provide much more protection for the roof gunner, they dramatically reduce the range, reliablity and stability of the vehicle. For a low-intensity, protracted COIN op, where the US needs every piece of light armor it can get, that's a reasonable trade-off.

But in an armored thrust across the desert, the Humvee's role would presumably revert to what it was originally intended for -- transport, primarily, with a bit of light recon thrown in. Since the gunner's coffins dramatically reduce the Humvees ability to (a) carry stuff, ( drive long distances without refuling or repair, and © handle rough terrain without tipping over, you can argue they would be counterproductive for such a role.

You didn't see any Humvees spearheading the thunder runs into Baghdad, after all.

So it's a reasonable conjecture that stuff like the Gunner's coffins, Abrams TUSK kits, etc. might be removed for an operation like an invasion of Syria.

If they were removed, they'd probably come back pretty quickly once the "hot" war was over, and the US found itself in another protracted "Nation Building" exercise.

Personally, I'd love to see them in the game. Regardless of what CMSF was built for, it simulates many types of COIN ops fairly well. So it would be fun to have more of the kit to do COIN ops. But it's understandable that this is a secondary priority for BFC, for now.

Cheers,

YD

[MarkEzra]

Originally posted by YankeeDog:

Some of you guys are missing the point.

The question is not whether or not Humvees have gunner's coffins *now*, in the COIN operations in Iraq, but whether they'd still have the gunner's coffins installed for a high-tempo offensive operation against a foreign military, such as Syria.

As Steve has noted, while the gunner's coffins do provide much more protection for the roof gunner, they dramatically reduce the range, reliablity and stability of the vehicle. For a low-intensity, protracted COIN op, where the US needs every piece of light armor it can get, that's a reasonable trade-off.

But in an armored thrust across the desert, the Humvee's role would presumably revert to what it was originally intended for -- transport, primarily, with a bit of light recon thrown in. Since the gunner's coffins dramatically reduce the Humvees ability to (a) carry stuff, ( drive long distances without refuling or repair, and © handle rough terrain without tipping over, you can argue they would be counterproductive for such a role.

You didn't see any Humvees spearheading the thunder runs into Baghdad, after all.

So it's a reasonable conjecture that stuff like the Gunner's coffins, Abrams TUSK kits, etc. might be removed for an operation like an invasion of Syria.

If they were removed, they'd probably come back pretty quickly once the "hot" war was over, and the US found itself in another protracted "Nation Building" exercise.

Personally, I'd love to see them in the game. Regardless of what CMSF was built for, it simulates many types of COIN ops fairly well. So it would be fun to have more of the kit to do COIN ops. But it's understandable that this is a secondary priority for BFC, for now.

Cheers,

YD

This sounds right to me

[Dragon67]

This is my first post.

My first post:

Great to see the Marine Module coming.

One questiion about skins:

If you have both Army and Marines in the same scenario will you be able to mod each one with different uniforms or will mods be applied to both ? I think it would be cool to use the Marines in Marapat or '91 scheme and the Army in default camos.

[M1A1TC]

I think the Marines in the module will have their own set of uniforms different from Army. I doubt that BFC would just retexture existing Army skins

[Dragon67]

M1A1TC

I hope you are right becuase it would be a real bummer if your not.

[Battlefront.com]

Quick answers:

We'll have to see what happens when we get a Mac version out, but since that won't be until after the Marines Module is released for sure it will be Windows only to start with.

YankeeDog recapped my argument very well. I know that in Iraq and Afghanistan now everything has been uparmored to the point where one wonders if any more can be stuck on there without the frame breaking. This is a luxury that can be supported by the close proximity of fixed facilities. It is also able to happen because the rest of the military is sitting around with not much else to do except support patrols and the occasional "big push" into a very small geographical area (like Sadar City). A Humvee might have a lot of miles put on it in a single day, but it generally doesn't range very far from a source of aid. At least not on a day to day basis. And if it does crap out, usually someone can drop what they're doing and fix the situation.

Think of a patrol of 5 Humvees (just plucking that number out of thin air) in Iraq. The guys wake up, get in their vehicles, drive off on their mission de jour, do what needs to be done, then drive back. If they experienced any problems they mention them and (in theory, of course ) the workshop guys service them as well as doing preventative maintenance. When the guys get up the next morning to go out on patrol again they have dramatically reduced the chance of losing a Humvee to mechanical problems because of the opportunities to check and service. And when they do lose one, generally speaking they can afford to sit tight and wait for recovery and replacement. And then the next day they can adjust to either going out with only 4 Humvees or grab another one from the pool or another unit.

This is not possible in a high tempo invasion scenario.

The point is that in a full up invasion scenario the vehicles will be required to drive balls out without the benefit of either built up logistics or close proximity to aid to get them there. They'll be on their own and it's hard to imagine that the current overloaded Humvees are up to that task. If we were making a COIN Ops game we'd be approaching this thing very differently in all sorts of ways, the vehicles being only one of them.

Yes, the Marines "skins" are unique and can be manipulated independently of the Army because both can coexist in the same scenario at the same time. Or at least they can coexist better than they can in the same bar at the same time

Steve

[ May 06, 2008, 11:41 AM: Message edited by: Battlefront.com ]

[Dragon67]

//Yes, the Marines "skins" are unique and can be manipulated independently of the Army because both can coexist in the same scenario at the same time. Or at least they can coexist better than they can in the same bar at the same time//

Thanks, that right there makes it worth the money.

[Clavicula_Nox]

Still, if these forces were being deployed from Iraq, they would be required to have the armor kits. The only conceivable way around it, other that pure Army stupidity, is to ship them into Kuwait, line-haul them to the assembly area, and fly the entire task force to the assembly area.

Good or bad, high ranking officers would lose rank by deploying unarmored vehicles. They may accomplish their assigned mission, or whatever, but just let 3 gunners die and watch the media fallout. The headline would read like this:

"Top US Commander in Syria invasion under investigation for refusing to provide critical protective equipment to soldiers." The article could include some great one-liners from mechanics about how they were ordered to remove the armor that was already on the vehicle, especially when nobody wanted to see the armor go.

This guy could be a wonder-child 4-star of doom, and he would still go down. Anybody remember General Garrison? He was a wonder 4-star forced into retirement because of the Mogadishu mission. The man was one of the creators of 1SFOD-D, and a career special operations soldier, and every request he made for better equipment was stymied by the political process and he still got the axe.

I'm just saying, regardless of whether it would destroy the vehicles or not, the armor would stay on, and those pixel gunners would live just a little bit longer.

[Dragon67]

I am not concerned about the level of protection in the humvees.

I don't use them in most scenarios and when I do I want the speed that the protection would take away from them- like when I used one to race a sniper/spotter into a blind spot I could not get a Striker into before enemy RPGs blew it up.

[JP76er]

All I can say is "Sold!". Expect my purchase the 1st day of release.

[Clavicula_Nox]

Originally posted by Dragon67:

I am not concerned about the level of protection in the humvees.

I don't use them in most scenarios and when I do I want the speed that the protection would take away from them- like when I used one to race a sniper/spotter into a blind spot I could not get a Striker into before enemy RPGs blew it up.

I can't use Bradley's and Strykers, except in a few certain situations. Most missions I make are operations I was involved with. Most times I ever saw a Bradley, it was guarding a checkpoint or bridge. I don't expect, or want, them to cater to my needs or anything, but there just isn't anything in-game for any kind of effective light infantry force.

[Battlefront.com]

Nox,

The flip side of that is having the 4 Star Wonder Boy put in command of the new XM-234 Latrine Project because convoys were all broken down on the sides of the roads and the guys up front were fighting with one hand tied behind their backs. Not to mention all the poor bastards that are stuck immobilized giving the locals a chance to come in with RPGs, which this uparmor stuff can't do much more than hope for a dud.

So... let's just say that we completely agree on one thing:

The decision to go into Syria with the COIN Ops kitted Humvees would likely be a bad idea for several reasons, keeping them back in Iraq would be a bad idea for a different set of reasons. The only good idea would be to ditch the thing and get something better suited for the job.

BTW, the way I picture an invasion of Syria happening it wouldn't be using many, if any, of the forces that are already in Iraq. This would mean bringing in fresh equipment from either a forward deployment area (like Saudi Arabia or Kuwait), or fresh from CONUS. The forces in Iraq now are needed for Iraq, otherwise they'd have come home years ago like Rummy said they would prior to OIF. And even if the Iraq stuff were used, I see the same poor SOBs who have been busting their humps to get the kits on spending energy taking them off if that's what the mission required. No need to tranship them back through Kuwait.

Steve

[Clavicula_Nox]

What I meant by saying they were deployed from Iraq was just going off the graphic that shows the map of syria and the different task force elements intended routes. I didn't mean to suggest it would be some brigade that was on month 11 of their 12 month deployment being shifted over for this whole Syria party...that would be pretty messed up though.

Egh, the humvee is okay. I don't know if there are too many ways to make it better, there are so many variables to consider. Fuel efficiency, top speed, carry weight, passenger capacity, etc. I think it's asking too much of these vehicles to absorb explosive power. Alot of talk is being done about MRAPS, and I'm sure it's great, but I don't think it should completely replace the humvee.

I completely agree that fully uparmored humvees wouldn't be a good idea for an invasion force, but I could see some kind of compromise being made. A plate of steel infront of the gunner, like we first had, rather than the full 360 degree cages they're getting now. Lower grade armor doors, as opposed to the heavier and stronger stuff on now.

The flip side of that is having the 4 Star Wonder Boy put in command of the new XM-234 Latrine Project because convoys were all broken down on the sides of the roads and the guys up front were fighting with one hand tied behind their backs.

I think another thing we can agree on is that the 4-star Wonder Boy is screwed no matter what he does. He either becomes Commander of the Latrine, or forced into retirement drawing Colonel's pay. Either way, he can write a book afterwards and tour all the news networks, right?

[SgtMuhammed]

Originally posted by Clavicula_Nox:

I think another thing we can agree on is that the 4-star Wonder Boy is screwed no matter what he does. He either becomes Commander of the Latrine, or forced into retirement drawing Colonel's pay. Either way, he can write a book afterwards and tour all the news networks, right?

Especially since people are convinced that if an American soldier is killed in combat it is somehow against the natural order of the universe.

[Clavicula_Nox]

Originally posted by SgtMuhammed:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Clavicula_Nox:

I think another thing we can agree on is that the 4-star Wonder Boy is screwed no matter what he does. He either becomes Commander of the Latrine, or forced into retirement drawing Colonel's pay. Either way, he can write a book afterwards and tour all the news networks, right?

Especially since people are convinced that if an American soldier is killed in combat it is somehow against the natural order of the universe. </font>

[Dragon67]

Action movies and TV make it look like you have to be stupid to get shot or blown up.

[pcpilot]

Looking forward to the Marine Module. Thanks for the good news and keeping us updated. I'll also say I am relieved to hear the price of the module is quite reasonable and that CMSF will continue to be supported so fully. Well done Battlefront!

[Clavicula_Nox]

Originally posted by Dragon67:

Action movies and TV make it look like you have to be stupid to get shot or blown up.

Well, I was blown up because of my own stupidity, that much is true, but some people just get hit and they're doing everything right. It just happens.

[Dragon67]

Originally posted by Clavicula_Nox:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Dragon67:

Action movies and TV make it look like you have to be stupid to get shot or blown up.

Well, I was blown up because of my own stupidity, that much is true, but some people just get hit and they're doing everything right. It just happens. </font>

[LongLeftFlank]

On US casualties, keep in mind that the CMSF premise is not Iraq Part II: You'd Think We'd Learn, but that there's a demonstrably Syrian-based terrorist attack on the West horrific enough that Western popular opinion not only puts aside its current "bring 'em all home" reverie but is willing to shed significant Coalition blood in a high intensity new invasion to punish the evildoers, pronto.

I'm not defending this premise, or arguing it's likely even IF some AQ nutjobs based in Syria managed to dirty bomb Long Beach and Rotterdam via container ship or something. (More likely Assad would rapidly hand over the culprits, complete with full confessions a la Qaddafi). Just restating it.

[Battlefront.com]

Nox,

I think another thing we can agree on is that the 4-star Wonder Boy is screwed no matter what he does. He either becomes Commander of the Latrine, or forced into retirement drawing Colonel's pay. Either way, he can write a book afterwards and tour all the news networks, right?

Yup We're also in agreement, apparently, that the choice of putting the currently maxed out Humvees in a prolonged, fast tempo operation would come with some serious issues. But I also agree with you that someone might be tempted to go ahead with it anyway. I certainly think that follow up troops, predetermined to occupy recently taken ground, would probably be the most logical choice.

Well, I was blown up because of my own stupidity

Glad you're still with us to have this debate.

Steve