Modding Question

[Cpl Steiner]

Will it be possible to mod units in the game? I am hoping for a plethora of modded units shortly after release, such as Afghans, Somalis, and of course Iraqis.

[Sixxkiller]

What would essentially be the difference?

[Rat]

Originally posted by Sixxkiller:

What would essentially be the difference?

Beards and skincolor???

[General_solomon]

there is a considerable difference. each group has diffent fighting style depending on there terrain.

its like saying whats the diff between a canadian soldier and a Marine.

no offence to the canucks, it a big difference.

[meade95]

Originally posted by Cpl Steiner:

Will it be possible to mod units in the game? I am hoping for a plethora of modded units shortly after release, such as Afghans, Somalis, and of course Iraqis.

I'm very interested in this question as well -

Will we be able to edit existing units? Existing indivdual soldiers (meaning their stats).

Will we be able to create new units / individual soldiers (or squads) - Meaning could we create a QRF and label it as an SOF unit (with edited stats for each soldier / squad if need be).

Thanks

[ May 19, 2007, 04:27 PM: Message edited by: meade95 ]

[Misereor]

Originally posted by meade95:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Cpl Steiner:

Will it be possible to mod units in the game? I am hoping for a plethora of modded units shortly after release, such as Afghans, Somalis, and of course Iraqis.

I'm very interested in this question as well -

Will we be able to edit existing units? Existing indivdual soldiers (meaning their stats).

Will we be able to create new units / individual soldiers (or squads) - Meaning could we create a QRF and label it as an SOF unit (with edited stats for each soldier / squad if need be).

Thanks </font>

[C'Rogers]

In less I missed a huge announcement at some point, no. If you have a modding question about CM games and you don't see a yes then very likely no.

[meade95]

Ouch! - So there will be a game editor (that allows us to make new scenarios)...

But we won't have access to the *stats/values* of the weapons systems....or the ability to *mod* a new unit/squad into the game.

Not even for single player?

That is terribly unfortunate.......I thought this was going to be the next big game for me......Guess I'm still waiting...

Maybe what Black Foot Studios is working on will be it......

This game looks great.....Really wish it allowed for us (Single Player even) to adjust weapon/unit stats......or to add a new unit in....(say a type of QRF).

Allowing such would create a tremendous following....

[panzermartin]

About modding...has anything been confirmed about multiple skins per vehicle? I think it was a possibility, as it had been mentioned very early in the development phase.

[MikeyD]

Steve said quite awhile ago that muliple vehicle skins were on their 'wish list' - but so was water! So don't count on it. Maybe it'll make it into the WWII theatre where it'll be much much more relevant. For Stryker brigade multiple skins would mean a different vehicle number hidden behind the slat cage.

About mods? I wouldn't be telling any tales out of school if I were to say its in. Steve had replied to a comment of mine on this board that he's looking foward to seeing some 3rd party mods for the game. He might've been talking about buildings or walls or something, but hey - that means we'll have access!

[dog of war]

meade95

tell us more about the game from black foot studios

[meade95]

Originally posted by dog of war:

meade95

tell us more about the game from black foot studios

Black Foot Stuidos is a newly formed independent gamming company - The owners are origianl Dev guys from GR and R6 -

It is being developed to be the most realistic FPS (squad based) shooter on the market - They have a great small team and the game is currently in the building phase -

It is going to fall in line with GR/R6 (the originals) in terms of realism and tactics based play -

Ops will be very realistic (based on current events)....

Go here to read on its progress (they are tremendous with regard to customer feedback and input).

http://www.blackfootstudios.com/forums/index.php?s=fab122a6be034ddf2b0be5c59ff893e1&showforum=13

This link provides more details on the game that will be coming out -

http://www.blackfootstudios.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=10

Here is a picture of some of the work in progress..

http://www.blackfootstudios.com/forums/index.php?act=Attach&type=post&id=98

[ May 20, 2007, 03:33 PM: Message edited by: meade95 ]

[Pvt. Ryan]

Originally posted by meade95:

Ouch! - So there will be a game editor (that allows us to make new scenarios)...

But we won't have access to the *stats/values* of the weapons systems....or the ability to *mod* a new unit/squad into the game.

Not even for single player?

That is terribly unfortunate.......I thought this was going to be the next big game for me......Guess I'm still waiting...

Maybe what Black Foot Studios is working on will be it......

This game looks great.....Really wish it allowed for us (Single Player even) to adjust weapon/unit stats......or to add a new unit in....(say a type of QRF).

Allowing such would create a tremendous following....

You don't modify weapons or vehicle capabilities in a game that strives to be historically (or hypothetically, as the case may be) accurate. BFC goes to great pains to get these things right and they have no reason to let you mess it up. If you are looking for a fantasy came CM is not it. Mods in CM games mean graphic modifications.

[Sequoia]

I thought they confirmed somewhere that different vehicles will have different stowage items (gas cans and tools etc) so that vehicles will not all look alike.

[meade95]

Originally posted by Pvt. Ryan:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by meade95:

Ouch! - So there will be a game editor (that allows us to make new scenarios)...

But we won't have access to the *stats/values* of the weapons systems....or the ability to *mod* a new unit/squad into the game.

Not even for single player?

That is terribly unfortunate.......I thought this was going to be the next big game for me......Guess I'm still waiting...

Maybe what Black Foot Studios is working on will be it......

This game looks great.....Really wish it allowed for us (Single Player even) to adjust weapon/unit stats......or to add a new unit in....(say a type of QRF).

Allowing such would create a tremendous following....

You don't modify weapons or vehicle capabilities in a game that strives to be historically (or hypothetically, as the case may be) accurate. BFC goes to great pains to get these things right and they have no reason to let you mess it up. If you are looking for a fantasy came CM is not it. Mods in CM games mean graphic modifications. </font>

[Phoenix]

This topic was beaten to death 7 years ago. Same answer now as then.

[flamingknives]

It seems to me that the number of people who could 'tweak' unit stats in a credible way can be counted on the fingers of one hand. Considering how the CM series has always been a closed system in this regard, it seems likely that variable stats would seriously effect every aspect of game play and the time taken to chase all of these down would be significant.

Only BFC know their engine well enough to muck about with it, as it is somewhat more complex than an FPS.

Please explain:

OGR

ATF

POA2

AATF

?

[meade95]

Originally posted by flamingknives:

It seems to me that the number of people who could 'tweak' unit stats in a credible way can be counted on the fingers of one hand. Considering how the CM series has always been a closed system in this regard, it seems likely that variable stats would seriously effect every aspect of game play and the time taken to chase all of these down would be significant.

Only BFC know their engine well enough to muck about with it, as it is somewhat more complex than an FPS.

Please explain:

OGR

ATF

POA2

AATF

?

I'm not talking about tweaking any of the core specs within the game/engine itself - But merely allowing end-users / customers the ability to tweak the ratings of soldiers/squads .

I'm sure BFC currently has Syrian soldiers rated different then U.S. soldiers in a number of categories...

Adjusting these specific skill related values wouldn't cause any issues to the engine itself.....the engine is already set up to run with various rated weapon systems / soldier skill levels.

It would just give the customer the ability to create new scenarios with various created units (with differng skill sets)....Again, just one example would be to create an SOF QRF (Quick Reaction Force) unit....

As for AATF -

<P.

http://www.prosimco.com/aatf.htm

As for POA2 - That is a modern HPS war simulation -

http://www.hpssims.com/Pages/products/POA2/POA2b.html

http://www.hpssims.com/index.htm

OGR - Just original Ghost Recon FPS

[JonS]

Originally posted by meade95:

I'm sure BFC currently has Syrian soldiers rated different then U.S. soldiers in a number of categories...

Could you be a little more specific? BFCs position has always been that people are people, regardless of where they come from. It is equipment and level of training that makes the difference.

In terms of modability, I'd expect to see the same basic open-ness as CMx1. I.e., change the skins, and a certain amount of customisation of individual units in terms of quality, headcount, ammunition, and leader attributes.

IMO, having locked weapon stats is more of a business decision than a we-are-right-and-you-are-wrong thing. BFC got several things demonstrably wrong in the CMx1 series. However, by locking down the unit stats, at least everyone is assured to be using the same stats.

Looking at HPS's Panzer Campaigns (PzC), as a counter example, the unit stats are completely open, and people have done 'cool' things like making Wittmans unit utterly invulnerable and devastating. They really neat thing about the way HPS has implemented this is that turn calculations are based on the local OoB file. SO I can, for example, have a file that turns all my units into Super Stud Muffins (SSMs) and all your guys into Complete Cream Puffs (CCPs), and the turn will process with no problems. Silly approach, if you ask me. Granted, that is a strawman, and there is no reason that you can't have editable unit/weapon stats allied to a secure and reliable gaming experience.

OTOH, PzC does not allow you to modify the map, so if you want to fight in Normandy, you have to buy the Normandy Module. With CMx1 you could quite happily and easily kludge together NWE scenarios from the CMAK module. But you couldn't ever have a Tiger II in one of those scenarios.

[meade95]

[YankeeDog]

I think people here are having different concepts of what "modding" is. . .

In the CM community, "modding" is usually used to refer to the customization of the 2-D "skins" that wrap around the 3-D models, and also the modding of sound files. It is reasonable assume that CMx2 will continue to allow this kind of modding.

CM has never allowed the alteration of the underlying 3D models, and I think it's already been confirmed that this will not happen for CMx2, either.

As for other kinds of "modding", CM has always allowed you to alter the experience level of units. If you read through BFC's past posts, you will see that CMx2 has a more complicacted unit quality model that, among other things, separates unit experience from morale.

I don't recall it being specifically stated by BFC, but I think it's a pretty safe assumption that the scenario editor in CMx2 will continue to all this kind of "modding." So should be able to create elite, highly trained Uncons, if you really want to, even though these would be very unlikely IRL (though they seem to be getting better and better every day in Iraq. . .).

CM has also always allowed a degree of "modding" of unit attributes, specifically ammo loads, sometimes ammo type, and "specials" for infantry units -- grenades, AT weapons carried, etc. Again, not specifically stated, but it is reasonable to assume that the game will continue to give players this kind of flexibility.

Historically, CM has *not* allowed players to alter the weapons loadout for units. For example, a german Rifle 41 has 1 MG-34, and there's nothing a designer can to to change this.

I really doubt CMx2 will allow wholesale change to unit weapons loadout, but it will be interesting to see what CMx2 does in this regard. On the US side, current doctrine allows infantry squads to have some flexibility in the weapons soldiers carry, depending on the mission. So it wouldn't surprise me if there was a little bit of flexibility as to what kinds of weapons US infantry units carry.

Similarly on the Syrian side, the "Uncons" present an intriguing possibility for flexibility. Such units obviously have no standard TO&E. It wouldn't surprise me if scenario designers have a fair amount of flexibilty as to weapons loadout with these kinds of units.

But I don't need BFC's confirmation to be 100% confident that CMx2 will NOT allow modding of weapons capabilities. There, you will be stuck with BFC determinations. So if you don't agree with the penetration/kill % of an RPG-7 in the game, you can whine all you want, but short of a patch from BFC themselves, you're stuck with it.

Cheers,

YD

[meade95]

Originally posted by YankeeDog:

I think people here are having different concepts of what "modding" is. . .

In the CM community, "modding" is usually used to refer to the customization of the 2-D "skins" that wrap around the 3-D models, and also the modding of sound files. It is reasonable assume that CMx2 will continue to allow this kind of modding.

CM has never allowed the alteration of the underlying 3D models, and I think it's already been confirmed that this will not happen for CMx2, either.

As for other kinds of "modding", CM has always allowed you to alter the experience level of units. If you read through BFC's past posts, you will see that CMx2 has a more complicacted unit quality model that, among other things, separates unit experience from morale.

I don't recall it being specifically stated by BFC, but I think it's a pretty safe assumption that the scenario editor in CMx2 will continue to all this kind of "modding." So should be able to create elite, highly trained Uncons, if you really want to, even though these would be very unlikely IRL (though they seem to be getting better and better every day in Iraq. . .).

CM has also always allowed a degree of "modding" of unit attributes, specifically ammo loads, sometimes ammo type, and "specials" for infantry units -- grenades, AT weapons carried, etc. Again, not specifically stated, but it is reasonable to assume that the game will continue to give players this kind of flexibility.

Historically, CM has *not* allowed players to alter the weapons loadout for units. For example, a german Rifle 41 has 1 MG-34, and there's nothing a designer can to to change this.

I really doubt CMx2 will allow wholesale change to unit weapons loadout, but it will be interesting to see what CMx2 does in this regard. On the US side, current doctrine allows infantry squads to have some flexibility in the weapons soldiers carry, depending on the mission. So it wouldn't surprise me if there was a little bit of flexibility as to what kinds of weapons US infantry units carry.

Similarly on the Syrian side, the "Uncons" present an intriguing possibility for flexibility. Such units obviously have no standard TO&E. It wouldn't surprise me if scenario designers have a fair amount of flexibilty as to weapons loadout with these kinds of units.

But I don't need BFC's confirmation to be 100% confident that CMx2 will NOT allow modding of weapons capabilities. There, you will be stuck with BFC determinations. So if you don't agree with the penetration/kill % of an RPG-7 in the game, you can whine all you want, but short of a patch from BFC themselves, you're stuck with it.

Cheers,

YD

Thanks for the well written & clarifying post -

I'm hoping then that CM2 does allow for the adjusting of a units make-up / weapons load-outs....This itself would be very helpful for future customer driven /created scenarios...

Along with the continued ability to adjust units morale and experience....

[meade95]

Regarding squads / units within CM-SF -

Each will be rated in the following - (correct)

Experience

Training

Morale

Suppression

Condition

Fitness

And our each of these avaliable to be *edited* when creating new scenarios / missions.....When putting units on to the map...

[Battlefront.com]

As others have said, all inherent game data is locked up really tight and even encrypted. This is large part because CM:SF is a realistic game and therefore there is no need to tweak numbers. If we have it wrong, chances are few people will be able to tell us what "right' is. When it does happen we do change the core data so everybody benefits from the improvement to realism.

This is fundamentally different from First Person Shooters and Real Time Strategy Games. These are inherently GAMES, while Combat Mission is inherently a SIMULATION. There is a massive difference. Even wargames like HPS' products are more game than they are simulation. They rely on subjective values and that means there is more art to their data than science. Individual opinions, therefore, are inherently equal. In 1997 we started working on Combat Mission and purposefully stayed far, far away from that data system.

Now, as with all previous CM games you can freely change a unit's attributes. This means you can change its Experience, Training, Motivation, Fitness, etc. These things influence Morale, Suppression, Condition, and other things as do dozens of other variables. In other words, there is no such thing as a "Condition" varible to tweak. It simply doesn't exist. What does exist are dozens of different combinations of variables which might have some impact on Condition to some degree or another. Therefore, it is inherently impossible to mess with stuff like that. It is the primary difference between a game and a simulation.

There are no inherent variables for nationalities, troop types, etc. A 20 year old Syrian who has a good diet and exercise regiment is equal to an American 20 year old with the same diet and exercise regiment. If you want to portray a difference between the two, such as the American having a higher level of physical fitness due to constant military training, as opposed to the Syrian who just got into the army 5 days before the war started, well... easy enough. Bump up the American's Fitness variable and decrease the Syrian's. The battlefield results will be different now than they would otherwise be if the same.

There are differences, though, between different soldier types. A US Rifleman, for example, has about 4 times the weight on his body than a Syrian Rifleman does. The US Rifleman also has better protection from small arms and shrapnel, but at the cost of reduced tollerence for movement (i.e. tires out quicker). A Syrian Combatant (Unconventional Fighter) goes into combat with hardly anything on him besides civilian clothing, a firearm, and some ammunition. Given the same Fitness rating a Combatant can literally run circles around the typical US unit. But again, this has NOTHING to do with inherent biological differences and it doesn't require any tweaking to the complex web of data that is kept locked up within the game's core.

Note that all adjustments are done at a unit level, not at the individual soldier level. With several hundred soldiers potentially under your command, indivdiuals have no statistical importance on the simulation so there is no reason to trouble you with them. The game, however, does track things at the individual level.

Hopefully this will get you thinking in a different direction about what CM since it shares almost nothing in common with FPS and RTS games, nor with traditional wargames. It is more akin to a flight simulator, and therefore not directly comparable with FPS/RTS games.

Steve

[Battlefront.com]

Couple more answers...

No to multiple skins. When we do manage to add something like that it will be vehicle numbers only. Why? You guys have NO IDEA how quickly you'll fill up a 256MB card, not to mention a 512MB card. Really, you don't What happens when you do this is CM downgrades the textures until things can fit into the memory you have available. I have a 256MB card and it is stressed enough even without the extra textures, thank you very kindly

What we do have is random equipment placed on vehicles. This gives vehicles an individual look without a big hit to VRAM since the items are reused all over the place in different combinations. What I mean by that is there is just a single texture for an ACU backpack that is found slung to the sides of vehicles. Yet there could be several dozens of them all over the place. One hit to VRAM, many applications. Unique vehicle textures screw with that, unfortunately.

We have some other neat ideas to vary things a bit more when we get to WWII, mostly because the Germans largely painted their vehicles by hand. But it isn't really necessary now since that is not the case on either side. When we get to WWII expect more support for modding vehicle textures.

Steve