Keep PBEM!!!!!!!!!!

[Canuck]

Originally posted by Scipio:

Well, I don't know how BFC figures out if CM is played more solo then PBEM. I nearly never play vs the AI. To win or lose vs a machine is just pointless for me. But well, I guess they know what they are talking about.

I'm sure they've probably taken into account the number of total sales and compared it to the number of people registered on this forum. I'm just guessing but I'd say 20% would be an extremely generous percentage as to how many registered members play PBEM on a regular basis. Then compare that to the total number of units sold and you can see how they could possibly think that PBEM is not such a big of a factor as some of us might thing.

(Not that it would be a good thing to take it out. I'm sure they will probably end up keeping it.)

Will file saves really be that much bigger? Yes of course the graphics are much better but all that should be client based-only the calculations should have to be transmitted and there can't be that many more than with CMBO.

Or am I totally wrong here? Maybe Steve has already stated otherwise and I missed it.

[GJK]

Well, not to start YADACMx2D* but if you read Steve's post on page 1 of this thread, he alludes to it being a "technical issue" which might preclude pbem capabilities. I read that as filesize may not be 100% of the total problem here. And yes, I can see Steve and the gang rolling their eyes saying "here they go on a wild guess again....".

* Yet Another Debate About CMx2 Development

[KG_Cloghaun]

Originally posted by Canuck

I'm just guessing but I'd say 20% would be an extremely generous percentage as to how many registered members play PBEM on a regular basis.

Now shifting focus for a minute onto how many people actually play PBEM vs AI -

I would say that is quite a low estimate. 20%? I honestly find that hard to believe. My experience with online CM communities points heavily in favor of PBEM. Not including my small war gaming club, off the top of my head I can name StrategyZoneOnline, Rugged Defense Club, FGM, Band of Brothers (sorry if I'm missing a site)- all of which run either ladders or at least tournaments that are focused on playing PBEM. Combined, your talking about hundreds of war gamers. Maybe I'm wrong, but I fail to see any of these sites, which are the most prominent in the online world of CM, focusing on AI play. And while it can be argued that "hundreds" of people represent only a fraction of total sales, these are the "hardcore" fans of the game that have gone so far as to create and/or belong to these communities.

In fairness to the issue, I'd like to see a poll on these numbers or some evidence to support this "supposed" AI majority.

Respectfully,

KG_Cloghaun

[Elmar Bijlsma]

Originally posted by KG_Cloghaun:

Originally posted by Canuck

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> I'm just guessing but I'd say 20% would be an extremely generous percentage as to how many registered members play PBEM on a regular basis.

Now shifting focus for a minute onto how many people actually play PBEM vs AI -

I would say that is quite a low estimate. 20%? I honestly find that hard to believe. My experience with online CM communities points heavily in favor of PBEM. Not including my small war gaming club, off the top of my head I can name StrategyZoneOnline, Rugged Defense Club, FGM, Band of Brothers (sorry if I'm missing a site)- all of which run either ladders or at least tournaments that are focused on playing PBEM. Combined, your talking about hundreds of war gamers. Maybe I'm wrong, but I fail to see any of these sites, which are the most prominent in the online world of CM, focusing on AI play. And while it can be argued that "hundreds" of people represent only a fraction of total sales, these are the "hardcore" fans of the game that have gone so far as to create and/or belong to these communities.

In fairness to the issue, I'd like to see a poll on these numbers or some evidence to support this "supposed" AI majority.

Respectfully,

KG_Cloghaun </font>

[KG_AGCent]

Originally posted by Canuck:

I'm just guessing but I'd say 20% would be an extremely generous percentage as to how many registered members play PBEM on a regular basis.

If by "registered members" you mean those who are registered and post here on a regular basis then I would point you HERE take a perusal then tell me how many you think DON'T PBEM. A vast majority of the posts made in that thread ask for PBEM to be kept as a feature of the game. Our membership is made up of 30-somethings mostly and the balancing act between family, career and gaming can be precarious at best. PBEM gives those of us who must balance, that means of enjoying our hobby while keeping our jobs and wives too.

So, as you can see, keeping the PBEM feature in game will not only ensure the integrity of our great nations social and moral fabric it is also nearly singlehandedly responsible keeping our economy afloat.

Vive' la PBEM!

[Scipio]

Originally posted by Elmar Bijlsma:

Problem with your whole calculation is that you are considering the habits of people that are online, indeed, they are online players. Most people do not use the internet much at all.

I think it's a fair bet most people buy CM from BFC and that is the last time they do anything online related to CM. Hence they are invisible to us who are part of the online community, who are inherently prone to play PBEM and TCP/IP.

It's hard for me to believe that a majority of people purchase CM and play the game so extensive and over such a long time that it makes Steve saying 'Most games are played vs the AI', and that the same masses are absolutly not interested into clubs, forums, mods or any other kind of online activity or appearance. If those masses doesn't show up somewhere, how can someone know if they are still playing the game?

From my own experience, to play vs the AI is nice when you have purchased a new game. But after some time it just gets boring. I surely would never consider to play CM for nearly 5 years now vs the AI. I can't believe that someone else does. Sounds like being married with a rubber doll.

[dalem]

Originally posted by KG_AGCent:

If by "registered members" you mean those who are registered and post here on a regular basis then I would point you HERE take a perusal then tell me how many you think DON'T PBEM.

A couple of hundred guys. Out of a forum with 18k+ registered members over the last 6 years. Out of a customer base of X who play the game regularly, out of a customer base of Y who bought a version of the game.

That thread is a good sample of some of the the hardest of the hard core, but that is all.

None of which means PBEM as we know it is uncommon, but neither does it mean that it is supercritical.

-dale

[dalem]

Originally posted by Scipio:

I surely would never consider to play CM for nearly 5 years now vs the AI. I can't believe that someone else does.

Believe it. I still do. And I suspect that there are tons of guys just like me.

The ability to play a good wargame against a fairly capable opponent on my own time is

The.

Most.

Important.

Feature.

To me. PBEM is around 2nd place somewhere.

-dale

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by dalem:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Scipio:

I surely would never consider to play CM for nearly 5 years now vs the AI. I can't believe that someone else does.

Believe it. I still do. And I suspect that there are tons of guys just like me.

The ability to play a good wargame against a fairly capable opponent on my own time is

The.

Most.

Important.

Feature.

To me. PBEM is around 2nd place somewhere.

-dale </font>

[Tripps]

Keep PBEM

If its mostly us online guys playing CM, and BF caters more for those at home playing the AI, even if there are more of them - it will surely get lonely here methinks

[Scipio]

Originally posted by dalem:

Believe it. I still do. And I suspect that there are tons of guys just like me.

The ability to play a good wargame against a fairly capable opponent on my own time is

The.

Most.

Important.

Feature.

To me. PBEM is around 2nd place somewhere.

-dale

Sorry, to make this clear: the AI is a fairly capable opponent to you, while a human opponent is not, or at least to the degree as the AI? Have you ever spoken with your doctor about this problem?

If you are standing for the majority of players, then mankind is doomed.

[British Tommy]

Originally posted by Derfel:

OK, just for the sake of balance, and to show that there are other opinions on this issue;

Personally I never play PBEM and wouldn't miss it if it didn't show up in CMX and since I don't use this feature I would prefer the designers focus their energy on all the other things that could do with a little improvement.

-Derfel

Honestly mate, you don't know what your missing. Just give it a try and you will be hooked like the rest of us!

I have also made many great friends around the globe due to PBEM so I would like to say to Steve and the guys, THANK YOU FOR THE CM GAMES!

[dalem]

Originally posted by Scipio:

Sorry, to make this clear: the AI is a fairly capable opponent to you, while a human opponent is not, or at least to the degree as the AI? Have you ever spoken with your doctor about this problem?

If you are standing for the majority of players, then mankind is doomed.

The AI is a fairly capapble opponent when you set things up to not take advantage of its weaknesses, yes.

Plus, I can always unbalance it - I sometimes use fewer points than allotted when purchasing forces, leave all vehicles in column at the rear as if they are a just-arrived force or relief force, take all infantry against an Mechanized AI force, set the turn counter low, etc.

The AI isn't as capable as a human player, but it's not always a pushover either. Especially in a smaller scenario, say 500 points, one mis-step or lucky shot can change the whole dynamic quite significantly.

-dale

[KG_Jag]

If Battlefront loses the "hardcore" it will lose the "hardcore" of its customer base, as well as its way. This is not a mass market game series. For years it was available in the country of its origin (the largest single market) only by purchase by way of the net. Such games cannot afford to lose their true believers. Most of the true believers play other humans, and do it most frequently by PBEM.

The AI is lousy, especially on the offensive. It advances infantry like lines of ants. I hope to be proven wrong, but I can't conceive of the new game engine moving the AI forward enough quantim levels to make it truly competitive in all circumstances against a decent player.

The best games are against other humans. The only way that we humans with real lives can play against other humans on a consistant and frequent basis is by PBEM. It is also the only way to play opponents located half way around the world--indeed in all the time zones spanning the USA.

[ August 31, 2005, 04:13 PM: Message edited by: KG_Jag ]

[dalem]

Originally posted by KG_Jag:

If Battlefront loses the "hardcore" it will lose the "hardcore" of its customer base, as well as its way. This is not a mass market game series. For years it was available in the country of its origin (the largest single market) only by purchase by way of the net. Such games cannot afford to lose their true believers. Most of the true believers play other humans, and do it most frequently by PBEM.

I don't know that any of your claims above are necessarily true. They may certainly be. But I just don't know. What I do know is a group of 3 or 4 guys who play CM intermittently and rarely by PBEM, almost exclusively vs. the AI, and who never post on any of the forums.

All that being said, I dearly hope that PBEM stays, because I love it.

The AI is lousy, especially on the offensive. It advances infantry like lines of ants. I hope to be proven wrong, but I can't conceive of the new game engine moving the AI forward enough quantim levels to make it truly competitive in all circumstances against a decent player.

Like I said, the AI can be made into a fun and capable opponent, if you try.

The best games are against other humans. The only way that we humans with real lives can play against other humans on a consistant and frequent basis is by PBEM. It is also the only way to play opponents located half way around the world--indeed in all the time zones spanning the USA.

We don't know that. Maybe something with FTP servers can be worked out.

-dale

[Canuck]

If PBEM is left out, which I seriously doubt it will be, I'm sure it will be for a technical reason that makes it impossible and not because the larger audience doesn't play PBEM. So there's basically nothing we can do but wait.

I consider myself fairly "hardcore" (i peruse this site all the time and post a little less often.) But I am one of those people who don't play PBEM. Why? Well for one thing I don't have the patience for games that stretch out over weeks. Playing against the AI allows me to both, take all the time I want and at the same time play as much as I want. Also while I would enjoy a battle of wits against a human opponent, I really only enjoy that when I'm playing against my friends (bragging rights) and since none of my friends play the game im not really interested.

Don't get me wrong-I hope to God they include it and if they don't I won't consider it a complete game.

[Battlefront.com]

Remember, even if there is no PBEM there will still be TCP/IP, LAN, and Hotseat options. So the argument that no PBEM = no Human challenge is pure nonsense. It might not be the way some people want to play multi-player, but that isn't the same as saying the options do not exist at all.

The majority of our players play solo. At least most of the time. Having said that, as I have said hundreds of times before, we understand that PBEM is an important part of the enjoyment for a significant (though minority) slice of our customer base. We do not wish to cut this feature any more than they do. But if we must cut it for technical reasons, we must.

Remeber that I don't think it will come to cutting PBEM, we just refuse to promise something without knowing if we can honor the promise. Which makes yet another thread like this rather silly since nothing is going to change. Some people love PEBEM... no kidding We GET IT. So what's the point in wasting time and energy typing up yet another near endless thread about this topic. Ooo!! I know... there is no point, yet some people can't help posting anyway. And guess what... I got a solution for that

<snap>

Steve