Abrams tank

[mattwagner]

Wanted to add my 2 cents...

I was in a Stryker brigade in the cav. I never got to live fire a Javelin, but I've seen it a couple of times and went through simulator training on it. I forget how much one of those missles run, but suffice to say, only a couple guys got to live fire.

The thing is insane. It can kill anything, including the Abrams. Its neigh idiot proof. You lock on your target and hit the trigger. It's dead. Completely dead.

That's one thing though.

We also had LRAS3 (15k thermal & more).

In NTC we were spotting ****(vehicles and dismounts) practically through solid objects. Way far away. 15K, straight up. T-72? Call in the big guns. Boom. Don't even need to break out the Javelin.

Modern battlefield? Its not even a contest. And its only getting like that more and more. Playing that in a game... would be so boring.

Urban ops? That's a whole nother story!

Also wanted to add, the Javelin is supposed to be able to kill any armor threat into 2010-2020.

[ October 08, 2005, 02:29 AM: Message edited by: mattwagner ]

[Dillweed]

According to the all seeing all knowing Wikipedia th e Javelin costs about $100k per shot.

[kipanderson]

Steve,

“Yup, I am saying that Space Lobsters is a more realistic setting that German vs. France 2015 ”

You are probably right about that… but who knows .

All the best,

Kip.

[mattwagner]

yeah, the figure they told us was 6 figures starting with a one, but i forget the exact number. I'm pretty sure it was higher than 100k though.

[mattwagner]

Originally posted by fytinghellfish:

A Stryker Rifle Squad has a Designated Marksman and an AT Specialist. By default they both serve as Riflemen with M4 rifle. But depending on the mission there is a sniper rifle (of some sort, usually M24 or even the old M14) and Javelin sitting there ready to go. The Sniper Team has M107B in addition to the other sniper rifle so it takes what it needs.

The squad's designated marksman is usually equipped with an M4 and an ACOG sight or, depending on the mission, the M14/M1A rifle. The M14/M1A usually has a magnifying scope, but I've also seen it with an Aimpoint/Reflex sight, owing to the close quarters nature of some of the fighting where magnification won't do you much good, but a nice 7.62x51mm round will.

The 'sniper training' they give snipers at the platoon level for line units is pretty lame. Some real snipers trained a few guys at the Brigade level... and they in turn trained guys from individual platoons. 1 week. That's not real sniper school.

One of my old room mates went. Here's your M14, and off you go. He was also the gunner on his vehicle.

Anyway, it looks good on paper.

[Erik Springelkamp]

According to the all seeing all knowing Wikipedia the Javelin costs about $100k per shot

That would be the price given current orders, ie including development costs.

The variable cost must be much lower when these things are actually used in numbers and replaced.

[Redcon-5]

Still that would be an interesting equalizer. Not here you get so many points field your unit, but here this is your bugget try to field a unit.

There was a cartoon about how a tank fights in urban warfare. It sitting at city limits sign and calls in CAS till there is nothing moving or breathing. Then puts it down as kill

[Andreas]

Originally posted by Redcon-5:

3) As for tanks that could match the M1's the new German Leo 2A6 that they have exported scared the MRE's out me. And the (I'm going to screw up the spelling) Merkava 1,2, and 3 would just make me take my ball and go home, no way to attack them and drive away, walk maybe crawl yes.

The Merkava Mk. 1 was introduced in 1979, production stopped in 1983. The Mk. 2 production stopped in 1989. The Mk. 3 is the current model. Looking at this site makes me think that the Mk.1, Mk.2 and probably non-upgraded Mk.3 are slightly less dangerous to an M1A2 with current equipment as a frightened Sparrow is to a very hungry pussycat.

All the best

Andreas

[hellfish]

You forgot about the Merkava Mk4.

http://www.army-technology.com/projects/merkava4/

[Andreas]

Yep - I did. Not so much forget, rather not know. That sounds more like it.

All the best

Andreas

[Dillweed]

Lots of fresh meat, I see. Welcome!

[Peter Cairns]

I was wrong about QinetiQ, sure enough it is DSTL, here's the article.

"New Age Electric Armour - Tough enough to face modern threats

Rocket Propelled Grenades (RPGs) are the most prolific ground launched threat to British and Allied armoured fighting vehicles world-wide. To combat this very real and dangerous threat the Defence Science & Technology Laboratory, Dstl, has developed an 'Electric Armour' that reduces the effect of impacts by such projectiles to almost zero, and will ultimately save the lives of soldiers.

To get an idea of the damage an RPG can cause, it should be realised that upon impact its 'shaped charge' explosive warhead shoots a rapier-like jet of hot copper into the target at several miles per second. Such jets can penetrate anything upwards of a foot (30cm) of solid steel armour. The effect almost invariably results in loss of life and can destroy a modern armoured infantry combat vehicle or tank costing millions. There is currently no armoured personnel carrier, and few tanks, that could practicably carry the weight of armour needed reliably to resist such impacts from any direction. In recent years intensive research has been conducted at Dstl to find a highly effective, yet lightweight, armour system to address this threat.

Dstl scientists have developed a revolutionary Electric Armour system which can resist attack by RPGs or other shaped charge weapons whilst remaining of a practical weight and size for armoured vehicles to carry. A recently demonstrated system, consisting of bulletproof metal plating, insulation, power distribution lines, and storage capacitors weighs a mere couple of tonnes, but has a protective effect equal to carrying an extra 10-20 tonnes of steel armour.

Commenting on this latest invention Dstl’s Professor John Brown says:

“RPG’s can be easily picked up from street stalls for as little as $10 in most of the world’s trouble spots. It only takes one individual on, say, a rooftop in a village to press the trigger to cause major damage to passing armoured vehicles.

The Dstl Electric Armour system is an exciting advance which has generated a lot of interest in both UK and US defence circles. I am confident that our system is the way forward for lightweight defence of military vehicles. It is being strongly supported by the Army and Ministry of Defence to reduce the threat from this highly dangerous class of weapon .”

Dstl scientists have recently demonstrated an armoured troop carrier protected by Electric Armour, in which, when danger threatens, an outer skin of metal plates can rapidly be electrified to several thousand volts. When hit by a RPG or other shaped charge warhead, the incoming copper jet has to pass through the electrified layers, where it has to endure the passage of many thousands of amperes of current.

Professor Brown explains:

“As is well known, a current of just thirteen amps is sufficient to 'blow' and disintegrate the fuse of a household electrical appliance. Similarly, the high speed copper jet from a shaped charge anti-tank warhead is virtually instantaneously dispersed by the high temperatures and powerful fields generated by the so-called 'Pulsed Power' System carried by the vehicle. Any residual debris is absorbed by the vehicle’s ordinary armoured hull.”

Electric Armour

The system is powered entirely by the normal electrical supply of the vehicle. The electrical load imposed by stopping an RPG attack is no more arduous than for example starting the engine on a cold morning.

In the Demonstration to high level British Army and Ministry of Defence (MOD) Customers and invited US witnesses in the Spring of 2002, the target vehicle was subjected to repeated attacks. Post-shot examinations showed it to have sustained no internal damage whatsoever. The target was then driven away under its own power, scarcely the worse for an experience sufficient to destroy other vehicles many times over.

The MOD has tasked Dstl to reduce the weight and bulk of armoured vehicles, making them 70% lighter and 50% smaller over the coming two decades.

Dstl

Dstl (the Defence Science and Technology Laboratory) is the centre of scientific excellence for the Ministry of Defence, housing one of the largest groups of scientists and engineers in public service in the country. Its 3,000 strong workforce at sites all over the UK includes some of the nation’s most talented and creative scientists with the brief to ensure that the UK Armed Forces and Government are supported in house by world class scientific advice. Dstl delivers defence research, specialist technical services and the ability to track global technological developments. Its capabilities compare with the best in the world, supporting procurement decisions, defence policy making and operations.

Peter.

[Alter Ego]

CMSF without Abrams?

[Peter Cairns]

No there will be Abrams, Steve has said that in some scenarios there will be limited armour support.

Peter.

[JohnO]

Originally posted by Peter Cairns:

No there will be Abrams, Steve has said that in some scenarios there will be limited armour support.

Peter.

Will all of the Strykers' vehicles be present in this game, ie,

M1126 Stryker ICV - Infantry Carrier Vehicle

M1127 Stryker RV - Reconnaissance Vehicle

M1128 Stryker MGS - Mobile Gun System

M1129 Stryker MC - Mortar Carrier

M1130 Stryker CV - Commander's Vehicle

M1131 Stryker FSV - Fire Support Vehicle

M1132 Stryker ESV - Engineer Support Vehicle

M1133 Stryker MEV - Medical Evacuation Vehicle

M1134 Stryker ATGM - Anti Tank Guided Missile

M1135 Stryker NBCRV - NBC Recon Vehicle

JohnO

[aka_tom_w]

Originally posted by mattwagner:

Wanted to add my 2 cents...

I was in a Stryker brigade in the cav. I never got to live fire a Javelin, but I've seen it a couple of times and went through simulator training on it. I forget how much one of those missles run, but suffice to say, only a couple guys got to live fire.

The thing is insane. It can kill anything, including the Abrams. Its neigh idiot proof. You lock on your target and hit the trigger. It's dead. Completely dead.

That's one thing though.

We also had LRAS3 (15k thermal & more).

In NTC we were spotting ****(vehicles and dismounts) practically through solid objects. Way far away. 15K, straight up. T-72? Call in the big guns. Boom. Don't even need to break out the Javelin.

Modern battlefield? Its not even a contest. And its only getting like that more and more. Playing that in a game... would be so boring.

Urban ops? That's a whole nother story!

Also wanted to add, the Javelin is supposed to be able to kill any armor threat into 2010-2020.

OK

that's interesting!

-tom w

[Drusus]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

As for your point about selecting the mortar in tactical situations, now that I have it clarified that one level has the 81mm and the other the 60mm there is no pregame decision to be made. The Mortar unit has the ability to switch between the two without issues. However, in a sense there is a pregame decision because the 120 would typically be deployed to the rear whenever possible (max range of 7500m!) and therefore typically represented as "off board support".

Steve

Does anybody know the max range of the 81mm mortar? At least the finnish model we were using had a range of about 6km with the new grenade, but only a range of about 3km with the old one. Also, the new grenade was said to be almoust as effective as the old 120mm grenade. Anybody have any information about AMOS? I think it was at least cosidered to be bought by the US. The system is twin tubed 120mm mortar mounted on a vehicle. It should be possible to fire at least 6 grenades to the target so that they will all land at the same time. Also, it should be possible to fire accurately while moving (max speed of 10km/h, but still..)

[Drusus]

Ok, a bit more information about AMOS:

It can fire 14(!) shells so that they explode simultaneously. It takes less than 30 s to get it ready to fire, and less than 10 s to get moving again. It can fire direct fire. Maximum range is over 10km. It can fire up to 26 rounds in a minute. The strike of one AMOS unit rougly equals one strike of an artillery battery. Talk about überfinnish technology

Sources:

http://www.patriahagglunds.fi/amostech.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Mortar_System

And a nice video, especially the part they are firing this thing from the boat:

http://www.suomensotilas.fi/nettisotilas/Lehti/Kuvat/amos.mpg

Now, I hope the US forces would be using this system in 2007...

[Battlefront.com]

Mattwagner, of course we'll be interested in your comments in the coming months! Hope you stick around. I promise you lots of MOUT combat if you do

John,

Here is the list of Stryker variants for CM:SF as we are thinking right now:

Yup, for sure in

M1126 Stryker ICV - Infantry Carrier Vehicle

M1127 Stryker RV - Reconnaissance Vehicle

M1128 Stryker MGS - Mobile Gun System

M1129 Stryker MC - Mortar Carrier

M1130 Stryker CV - Commander's Vehicle

M1131 Stryker FSV - Fire Support Vehicle

M1134 Stryker ATGM - Anti Tank Guided Missile

If Charles doesn't tell me to jump off a cliff, this will be in too

M1132 Stryker ESV - Engineer Support Vehicle

M1133 Stryker MEV - Medical Evacuation Vehicle

Considered outside the scope of CM:SF, so not in

M1135 Stryker NBCRV - NBC Recon Vehicle

Depending on how we simulate WIA recovery, the M1133 might not be included. However, since it is a fairly braindead simple thing to add it, I'd advocate it going in if for no other reason than to add an element to scenario storylines. The M1135 is a different story. First, I'm not even sure this will be fielded by 2007, second the specialized functions it performs are largely unnecessary for CM's setting.

One small note though. The M1128 MGS is currently still undergoing major surgery to get it working correctly. From the last reports I saw it is quite possible that it will be available by CM:SF's timeframe, so we will be putting it in unless something drastic changes. For example, of the GAO (General Accounting Office) finds out that the system is hopeless and that good taxpayer's money is following the bad. If something like that happens, and the vehicle is killed, then of course we won't included it. But I really hope that isn't the case. The MGS is a really big part of the Stryker concept. The ATGM variant isn't an adequate substitute, though from what I understand that is what it is at the moment.

Steve

[SgtMuhammed]

If they keep having problems with the MGS I wouldn't be surprised if they brought back the M4 AGS. It was almost ready to field when they killed it. I knew a bunch of officers who were already studying the manuals on how to employ it.

[hellfish]

You mean the M8 AGS?

The Army already published the field manual for it. FM 17-18: Light Armor Operations

There are four prototypes in existence. They were slated to go to the 82nd Airborne last year for their deployment to Iraq, but I guess nobody approved the funding to actually ship them. AFAIK, they're still in San Diego. I've got some pics and diagrams of the M-8 if anyone is interested. Personally, I love these things and would seriously dig being able to play with them.

The M-8 AGS

[SgtMuhammed]

4 - 8 whatever it takes.

[Jasper 2x]

Originally posted by fytinghellfish:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Jasper 2x:

What do you guys think of the spike family which is suppose to be more technologically advanced then javelin and a lot cheaper and smaller. I have seen cost of $6,000 for the launcher and $4,000 for the missile. I have no idea what version this is referring to. You have Spike SR Short Range AT Missile 800 meters, Spike MR Medium Range AT Missile 2,500 meters (like javelin) and Spike LR Long Range AT Missile 4,000 meters. With these types of weapons you have to wonder has the age of the dinosaurs finally ended or will new armors maybe even nanotechnology resurrect the lumbering beasts once again?

I think the Spike is a great idea as an alternative to the Javelin, especially if it is a lot cheaper. I wonder if the control systems are the same for each version, meaning if you know how to use one you can use them all.

I only hope Israel is very selective of who they sell them to. </font>

[Hermit Crab]

roqf77 = PWN

[antawar]

I've been reading all the comments posted by Steve and forum members that are part of the US military and basically I deduce one thing from it: If The US ever wants to conquer Russia, it may become the first would-be conqueror to do so The Russian army and air force would be decimated in the field with minimal losses to US forces. (I have a different opinion but i'm being sarcastic here). Basically a cakewalk !

Even if it is a realistic scenario (which I doubt), if the russians are smart, they will be aware of the near certainty of such an outcome and will fight in the cities (kind of a return to medieval warfare, with the US besieging and attacking strong points.) When they are defeated but not after inflicting severe losses to US forces in Russian cities, they will start a pre-prepared insurgency that will make the Iraqi one pale in compariso. They will have WAY better light weapons (an ambush with thermobaric weapons and RPG-29s (850mm pen) would be deadly) superior military sense and aptitude compared to the iraqis + 10-20 times the numbers. After a few years it would be intenable for the US.

Why invade Russia ? because the Russians can't deploy much outside of their territory and that's the only way you guys would get a US-russia confrontation.

I strongly believe the US would need to reinstate a draft to actually consider invading Russia, it would easily take over 800 000 soldiers to achieve (and for occupying and pacifying). SO NO CHANCE OF IT EVER HAPPENING.

It sounds pretty far fetched but the discussion seems to be headed in that direction. Basically, it's pretty unrealistic to think that the US would go head to head with Russia and vice-versa.

I didnt even talk about nuclear weapons. During the first scenario (an irresistible and speedy US advance), the most likely outcome would not be GIs dancing in Moscow but 500 millions dead people in the northern hemisphere + a nuclear winter for all, since Russia would launch an all out nuclear attack on the US civilian infrastructure and all its support bases around the world when it senses its losing.

Same thing with China with China not being able to cause as much damage.

[ October 17, 2005, 09:50 PM: Message edited by: antawar ]