Abrams tank

[jim crowley]

Originally posted by gibsonm:

Steve,

Shouldn't you be coding somewhere or maybe generating screenshots / bones?

From my selfish point of view, don't bother, not if CMX2 is going to have anything to do with the stuff discussed in this thread

Might be time to go back to WW2 boardgaming - Lock 'n Load band of Heroes looks interesting.

[Bigduke6]

FK,

That's not true. Soviet mechanized warefare doctrine calls for the infantry to get out of the combat vehicles slightly before the point where the enemy can deliver effective anti-vehicle fire, or 200 meters or so from the enemy infantry, whichever comes first.

EDIT: Unless of course the enemy defense is so trashed by prep fires that it is, uh, defenseless. In this case the infantry stays in the APCs.

[ October 07, 2005, 03:20 AM: Message edited by: Bigduke6 ]

[hellfish]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

FHF, I think they are already doing the "arms room" thing in practice. A Stryker Rifle Squad has a Designated Marksman and an AT Specialist. By default they both serve as Riflemen with M4 rifle. But depending on the mission there is a sniper rifle (of some sort, usually M24 or even the old M14) and Javelin sitting there ready to go. The Sniper Team has M107B in addition to the other sniper rifle so it takes what it needs. The Mortar Platoon has 60mm, 81mm, and 120mm mortars available depending on mission. Shotguns are also available on an as needed basis.

Yeah, you're absolutely right about the arms room concept. It is in practice today - I knew that, but didn't make it obvious that I know that.

The squad's designated marksman is usually equipped with an M4 and an ACOG sight or, depending on the mission, the M14/M1A rifle. The M14/M1A usually has a magnifying scope, but I've also seen it with an Aimpoint/Reflex sight, owing to the close quarters nature of some of the fighting where magnification won't do you much good, but a nice 7.62x51mm round will.

The company sniper team has three men - one with an M107 .50cal, one with an M24 and one with an M4/M203. I'm glad the Army has finally given snipers the credit they deserve and put them at the disposal of lower echelon units. For a long time they were only in divisional LRSD or SpecOps communities, IIRC. At least it was rare whenever I saw snipers and I'm pretty sure we never had any of them in any battalions I was in.

You're just slightly off on the mortars, though, I think. Battalion level mortar platoon has 120s and 60s, but I think company level mortar section is 81s and 60s. AFAIK, the 60s are only used when the unit is dismounted and conducting infiltration or air assault missions.

Now, from a simulation standpoint some of these swaps are done "outside of CM's scope" (to use familiar CMx1 terms ). For example, the Mortar Platoon would not be deployed with the 120s and then decided it had better switch to 60s. It would be set up ahead of time one way or the other. Sniper Teams and Designated Marksmen would also likely have their weapon selected prior to a battle. However, things like Javelin... no, that sucker would not be lugged around unless there was an "in game" reason. That means we'd have to put in some sort of support for on-the-fly weapons swapping for certain, specific things. An interesting design complication for sure

Steve

I'd almost be willing to argue with you on that point. I don't think it would be out of the scope to, say, have the mortar section set up a 60mm mortar 10-15m away from the Stryker and if CMx2 supported re-crewing of vehicles and weapons, the crew could exit the mortar vehicle and crew the dismounted 60 as needed. Granted, the only thing the 60 is really useful for is illumination rounds and smoke rounds, but still...

[J Ruddy]

Originally posted by fytinghellfish:

Granted, the only thing the 60 is really useful for is illumination rounds and smoke rounds, but still...

I think that is a slight.. er.. what's the opposite of exaggeration? With a 20 Round Per minute sustained firing rate and a range of about 1000m (MD will correct me on these numbers I'm sure) these little puppies are the cats ass for light infantry who need to reach out and suppress someone.

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by J Ruddy:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by fytinghellfish:

Granted, the only thing the 60 is really useful for is illumination rounds and smoke rounds, but still...

I think that is a slight.. er.. what's the opposite of exaggeration? With a 20 Round Per minute sustained firing rate and a range of about 1000m (MD will correct me on these numbers I'm sure) these little puppies are the cats ass for light infantry who need to reach out and suppress someone. </font>

[hellfish]

Exactly. The 60mm mortar isn't of much use, especially as there are only two tubes per company. The 40mm M203 is much more useful in the suppression role, as there are two per rifle squad and they usually carry about 18 HEDP rounds (plus a couple smoke, buckshot and flares for a normal total of about 24).

Two 60mm mortars, not matter how quickly they fire, aren't going to be of much use in a suppressive fire role, methinks. And, as Dorosh said, ammo is pretty limited.

The South Africans used to issue a 60mm light patrol mortar to their rifle sections but IIRC gave it up in favor of their own 40mm grenade launchers and M79s.

Maybe Winecape has more info about the Patmortar?

[flamingknives]

Originally posted by Peter Cairns:

As we are talking now about Anti ATGW defences, does anyone know how QineticQ, are getting on with "electric" armour. The last I read about it was about a year ago.

In essense you put it in an APC and it charges the outer hull for an instant to a high voltage. This causes the "Plasma" from a shaped charge, to disperse and loose focus effectively spreading over the outside of the hull rather than penetrate,

Last I heard the system weighted over two tonnes but the target was to get it down to under one as part of the UK's future Land vehicle programme, I think DARPA were at least involved if not partners.

It isn't bloody Qinetiq who're doing that.

It isn't 'plasma' from a shaped charge - it's a solid metal jet traveling at between 2 and 10 km/s

Electric armour doesn't work as you describe it, either.

The 'future land vehicle programme' is called FRES: Future Rapid Effects System

[Dook]

Here is an account from a Marine unit in Desert Storm that indicates the Dragon was used in combat, although not against Iraqi armor.

[J Ruddy]

So what Dorosh & fytinghellfish are telling me is it isn't that the 60mm is a useless weapon, but rather that how it is deployed (mainly due to logistics) in the modern American army marginalizes its role on the battlefield?

I read a report regarding the PPCLI's experience

in Operation Athena and it seemed to suggest they made good use of the old 60mm - deploying it at the platoon level and using it to 'saturate enemy positions with HE'. Of course the report did go on to also praise it for its smoke and illumination capabilities.

[Michael Dorosh]

I'm not familiar with how it was employed in Afghanistan; I am familiar with the loads those guys carried. Possible their 100 pound rucks were stuffed with 60mm HE, but most of their targets were in caves, so I thought, and few contacts were made. The sniper teams saw action with the Rakkasan boys of the 101st Airborne, but the Patricias really didn't see much.

One of their company commanders posted a long description of the small arms they carried over at my forum; he still posts at army.ca once in awhile - perhaps if he's around in the near future I can ask him about 60mms.

[kipanderson]

Steve,

When it comes to Arena and Hellfire, TOW and such the reason it matters is because it illustrates very clearly that hard-kill defensive aids can work very well when you match up like generations. As is the case when one matches up various marks of M1 against same generation tanks from other nations.

The current generation of hard-kill systems are not just 360 degrees, but also diving attack optimized to deal with Javelin and other diving attack missiles. Diving attack missiles did have their window of opportunity from ’96 to a few years ago. But not surprisingly all, including the US, are now on to them with defensive aids packages which are specifically designed for dealing with such missiles. The situation is very similar to the dominance of HEAT weapons in the ‘70s before the widespread use of Chobham, reactive armour and such. The Defence-Update site is very strong on hard and soft kill defensive aids. Will give the full rant. (Also, do remember that the Defence-Update site is Israelis so in no way pro-Soviet. But they are very strong on the current generation of hard and soft kill defensive aids too.)

Steve posted in relation to settings for a modern or contemporary CMX2,

“Yes, but none of them with fantasy matchups, I'm sorry to say.”

This is quite a bone in that it does restrict the possibilities a fair bit.

I hugely look forward to any CMX2 wargame, and will no doubt enjoy the third world, infantry heavy contemporary game likely to come our way. But it will never quite hook me the way First World v First World, high-intensity warfare will. Everyone to their own .

I am confident their will be enough WWII high-intensity warfare to keep me more than happy for five years, the modules are a great idea… so am a happy chap .

All good fun,

All the best,

Kip.

[kipanderson]

Hi,

Quick add on.

Link to Defense-Update

http://www.defense-update.com/

The link either come sup very quickly, or not at all, have no idea why.

Also… I too enjoy infantry heavy, slow, tense games. But in the best of all possible worlds, still 1st World v 1st World .

All the best,

Kip.

[hellfish]

Originally posted by J Ruddy:

So what Dorosh & fytinghellfish are telling me is it isn't that the 60mm is a useless weapon, but rather that how it is deployed (mainly due to logistics) in the modern American army marginalizes its role on the battlefield?

I definately don't want to say the 60mm is useless - it's actually very accurate. I once saw my company mortar boys land a round inside of a 55 gallon drum at Fort McCoy.

It does provide some indirect fire capability to the commander, but on anything but defensive operations where ammo is stockpiled, the 60mm is not very useful as a suppressive fire weapon. The kill radius is pretty limited, IIRC, plus in reality the company commander will almost always have more useful assets on call. If not battalion 81s, then 105s or 155s, all the way up to JDAMs.

I'd be suprised to find out if the 60mms were used at all in OIF either during the invasion or in the post-invasion operations. I've got documentation that the M1064 120mm mortars were used pretty frequently, but I haven't heard a thing about 60mms that might have been used by the 101st or 82nd. I'll try to find out more if anyone's really interested.

[Battlefront.com]

FHF, I checked and you are correct about the Mortar assignments. The info I have seen is usually vague and/or contradictory. There is also a difference between the MC-A and MC-B versions, with the latter allowing for firing from within the vehicle.

As for your point about selecting the mortar in tactical situations, now that I have it clarified that one level has the 81mm and the other the 60mm there is no pregame decision to be made. The Mortar unit has the ability to switch between the two without issues. However, in a sense there is a pregame decision because the 120 would typically be deployed to the rear whenever possible (max range of 7500m!) and therefore typically represented as "off board support".

Steve

[dalem]

I remembered reading some very praise-filled articles about the 60mm mortar in U.S. service in Afghanistan a couple of years ago. I can't find those links right now, but I Googled the following up just now. They are more clinical and less anecdotal but certainly positive as regards the 60mm mortar:

Article 1

Article 2

Article 3

Food for thought.

-dale

[SgtMuhammed]

One of the biggest complaints about the Dragon was that it was so old. Most of the rounds being fired were older than the soldiers firing them.

We had several cases of missiles sommersaulting out of the launcher because the wires corroded and caused the guidance jets to fire at random. Pretty spectacular but not very effective against enemy armor.

[J Ruddy]

Originally posted by sgtgoody (esq):

We had several cases of missiles sommersaulting out of the launcher because the wires corroded and caused the guidance jets to fire at random. Pretty spectacular but not very effective against enemy armor.

That reminds me of a story my father told me.

He was a firecontrolman on an Iroquois Tribal class destroyer in the early 60's. They were doing a torpedo drill which required unlocking the 4 retraints on the Torpedo tube. Unfortunately the other sailor missed one and when the torpedo was fired out of the tube, it dove strait down into the water and popped up on the other side of the ship, punching a hole in the side, well above the water line.

No one was killed, the other soldier was injured by shrapnel created when the torpedo ripped itself out of the tube. All in all - not a good day for the RCN.

[Edited - there was too much class... "Iroquois Class Tibal Class"]

[ October 07, 2005, 10:15 AM: Message edited by: J Ruddy ]

[hellfish]

Interesting articles, no doubt. I'm still not sold on the lethality of the 60mm, though. Useful? Absolutely. Lethal? Not really. I can see how they'd be very useful in an environment like Afghanistan, where the M224 can provide extremely accurate fires out to ranges that no other company weapon system could hit (I'd bet that the mortars could also see their own impacts in that environment too) but on a more conventional battlefield like Iraq or Europe, I'd still say that the 60s are best used for illumination and smoke (WP) missions than suppressive fire.

I think we've all probably used light mortars in CM before, so I think we've all got a good idea of their usefulness.

[Jasper 2x]

What do you guys think of the spike family which is suppose to be more technologically advanced then javelin and a lot cheaper and smaller. I have seen cost of $6,000 for the launcher and $4,000 for the missile. I have no idea what version this is referring to. You have Spike SR Short Range AT Missile 800 meters, Spike MR Medium Range AT Missile 2,500 meters (like javelin) and Spike LR Long Range AT Missile 4,000 meters. With these types of weapons you have to wonder has the age of the dinosaurs finally ended or will new armors maybe even nanotechnology resurrect the lumbering beasts once again?

[ October 07, 2005, 11:03 AM: Message edited by: Jasper 2x ]

[Battlefront.com]

Kip,

I've probably looked over every page on Defence-Update, regarding soft and hard kill systems, three times prior to this thread even being started After reading all of that, and checking other sources, I stand by my comments. The counter measures are better than nothing but they aren't anything more than semi-effective. And I'll restate that Drozd was not a success. Lastly, I'll also restate that unless the tank has such a system it doesn't matter. And since most of these things are expensive or not fully developed, the gap between theoretical protection and real world effectiveness is quite large. Especially when the threat from things like Javelin have no significant gap between the theoretical and the practical. In other words, I'd put my money on a Javelin equipped Rifle Platoon than on any of the tanks it is likely to face.

But it will never quite hook me the way First World v First World, high-intensity warfare will.

Wait for Space Lobsters It will have all the excitement but without the realism baggage. Yup, I am saying that Space Lobsters is a more realistic setting that German vs. France 2015

Steve

[hellfish]

Originally posted by Jasper 2x:

What do you guys think of the spike family which is suppose to be more technologically advanced then javelin and a lot cheaper and smaller. I have seen cost of $6,000 for the launcher and $4,000 for the missile. I have no idea what version this is referring to. You have Spike SR Short Range AT Missile 800 meters, Spike MR Medium Range AT Missile 2,500 meters (like javelin) and Spike LR Long Range AT Missile 4,000 meters. With these types of weapons you have to wonder has the age of the dinosaurs finally ended or will new armors maybe even nanotechnology resurrect the lumbering beasts once again?

I think the Spike is a great idea as an alternative to the Javelin, especially if it is a lot cheaper. I wonder if the control systems are the same for each version, meaning if you know how to use one you can use them all.

I only hope Israel is very selective of who they sell them to.

[Redcon-5]

Just a note or two on the Abrams.

1) Someone metioned the 120mm as the big factor, I would just like to say that personally I like the 105mm just a little bit more. It was on the M1 and M1-IP. More ammo, more ammo types, quicker for the loader to reload (lighter rounds)and more room for poggy bait in the ready ammo rack. Same gun that was on the M-60 (see USMC GW1)

2) Borg spotting that has been metioned is standard at the company level for the M1A2. If one tank targets an object then every other tank in that company will also have it targeted (range, bearing, and grid coord). This might even be improved on with the M1A2-SEP up to batt. or brigd level which would then get the red legs involed. I know one tactic we toyed with was using the CITV as spotter and just sitting behind a hill and call in arty on anything that moved never even exposing ourselves to direct fire. That make it a bad day to be a crunchy no matter what type of AT eapon you have.

3) As for tanks that could match the M1's the new German Leo 2A6 that they have exported scared the MRE's out me. And the (I'm going to screw up the spelling) Merkava 1,2, and 3 would just make me take my ball and go home, no way to attack them and drive away, walk maybe crawl yes. The real wild card is the tank that India is working on don't know much about it.

[stoat]

Originally posted by Redcon-5:

The real wild card is the tank that India is working on don't know much about it.

The Arjun?

[Redcon-5]

Yes thank you. Last I heard it was going to mount a 120mm of some type maybe after the British model (seperate charge and warhead) but that while it was not deployed it was still under development.

[hellfish]

The Arjun is plagued by huge problems... it won't be fielded anytime soon and is already one of the longest and most expensive tank programs in history. The South Korean XK2 looks to be a beast, though.