Please don't model US soldiers wearing Pinnacle's Dragon Skin Body Armor

[ChrisND]

PLM2, kid, you are just looking for a pissing match. No arguments coming from me, it's not worth it.

[ May 23, 2007, 08:32 PM: Message edited by: Normal Dude ]

[PLM2]

Not every soldier is out sprinting across kill zones on a daily basis. Just like not every soldier is waiting on the other side of a wall listening for insurgents breathing, the earplug insanity. I suppose soldiers should stop communicating verbally too because in some situations the enemy might hear you. Not everybody enjoys sitting dressed in a pretty light infantryman's armor waiting to get picked off.

Originally posted by RMC:

The point is that the alleged qualitative difference between the Dragon Skin and Interceptor is of distinctly secondary importance. The vast majority of soldiers getting killed are being killed by the blasts of IEDs and not bullets. The Dragon Skin won't have any effect on that number of IED deaths even if it did offer better protection against bullets.

Clearly I cant read RMC because I am still dissagreeing with your statement that better armor wouldnt improve protection against IEDs.

I emphasized the importance of body armor to demonstrate how one bullet penetration can make the difference. If you think my reaction was too strong then you obviously don't realize how wrong you are. You might wish you had something stronger when you're lying on the floor with a sucking chest wound during your gaurd shift.

Im done discussing this with both of you based on your hostile reactions. Hey, I'll play my kiddie part and block you if i can as well becauase I dont need more stress in my life listening to ignorance.

[ May 23, 2007, 10:02 PM: Message edited by: PLM2 ]

[John Kettler]

RMC,

Troy Hurtubise's Trojan exoskeletal armor system.

http://tinyurl.com/2rqybv

http://www.hack247.co.uk/2007/01/24/troy-hurtubise-a-true-inventing-legend/

This covers some of his other inventions, to include Fire Paste, LIMBC (Light Infantry Military Blast Cushion) and the amazing Angel Light, which in turn begat the even more amazing God Light. I interviewed him for hours about the last two for a magazine article I wrote. Let me know if you'd like the citation.

http://www.americanantigravity.com/hurtubise.shtml

Regards,

John Kettler

[ChrisND]

Wow, I gotta admit that thing is something else. First thing I thought when I saw it was "HALO", then he said that later on.

Seriously though the video of him getting the crap beaten out of him with the suit was pretty impressive.

[John Kettler]

Normal Dude,

You should see the Ursus V? video in which he's rammed at 30+ mph by a Toyota pickup.

BFC et al.,

History Channel ran, and the devs should see, an episode of Modern Marvels last night called Modern Marvels: World's Strongest, part of which was the world's strongest body armor. The segment starts with captured insurgent video shot from a sniper's hide in which he drops a U.S. soldier, who's just stepped out of his Hummer, like a felled oak via a single torso hit. Pretty disturbing, right? Wrong! Next thing you know, the shot one stands right back up and takes cover behind the Hummer, none the worse from a potentially fatal shot.

How this came about is the subject of the rest of the segment: revolutionary new boron carbide body conforming armor: what it is, how it's made and performs at spitting distance. Firing tests shown on camera went as high as AK-47 type fire at 16 foot range. Got to see not only the firing, but the shot panel after it was removed from the pocket. Color me impressed!

Regards,

John Kettler

[ChrisND]

That video is actually well known and on the internet. A search should dig it up.

[flamingknives]

AK47 (7.62x39mm) isn't a particularly rigourous test. I'd be more impressed by 5.56 or 7.62 NATO, or 7.62x54R.

Sounds like an undertest of an NIJ Level III vest to me. NIJ goes up to IV, which resists 30-06 AP ammunition without dangerous deformation of the back face.

[tiny_tanker]

I have to give the dragon skin guys credit for their PR skills. They've had segments on Future Weapons and Mail Call that I've seen. It performed perfectly of course, would you expect anything less for a tv appearance? The Mail Call set really showed it off though, they fired 30 rounds from an MP5 into it with no failure, then followed it up with 30 rounds from an AK-47, and there was still zero penetration. It wasn't done on a clay block though so its hard to guess what the blunt trauma from that kind of punishment would be.

Does anyone know the difference in coverage area between the two? It looks to me like the Dragon skin provides better protection in that sense without any additional side plates like on the Interceptor. This would also explain the weight difference.

On the IED thing, body armor does increase survivability, but to get maximum protection the side and shoulder plates have to be worn. Of course it only protects the torso from trauma, and the majority of casualties are due to damage to the extremities.

Thats all the fun facts and thoughts I have for today.

[Splinty]

I have to wear the current IBA everyday over here. It's already heavy enough with the Shoulder protectors, the side plates, and all the mission gear, ammo, etc. It weighs 80 lbs. now, and you want me to add another 20 lbs. to give me marginally better protection?! No way! BTW for those of you who think that are exclusively mounted missions, think again. Everybody dismounts almost every mission.

[Sgt Joch]

Originally posted by tiny_tanker:

Does anyone know the difference in coverage area between the two? It looks to me like the Dragon skin provides better protection in that sense without any additional side plates like on the Interceptor. This would also explain the weight difference.

I have not been able to find the image, but on the "Dateline" program, you see that Dragon Skin is made up of small individual interlocking disks, almost like medievial chainmail, which allows it to cover the entire body whereas the Interceptor with its individual plates still leaves gaps.

In interviews on the program, it was also stated that Dragon Skin is being officially issued to army personnel involved in what they call "high risk" missions, although it was not explained what these were.

[flamingknives]

Closer to scale mail than chainmail. Rather than the monolitihic inserts of conventional armour, Dragon skin appears to have a the many small inserts built in to the flexible armour, so even if a shot completely destroys the ceramic of one plate, the one next to it is undamaged. Plus, of course, the many small plates can slide over one another as much as the backing material allows.

The flexibility is the plus point, as it means that you can put rigid ceramics where you couldn't with conventional body armour, and you have no distinct join line. The failing is that it will always be heavier, for the same materials being used, than a conventional set of armour. The dragon skin must have the same thickness plates as a regular insert, as the incoming round isn't any different. Due to the adverse edge effects, there needs to be a substantial overlap for each 'scale', essentially double-thickness areas.

30 rounds of 9mm isn't too impressive for ballistic armour - I'd expect a soft vest to stop that. As for the larger rounds, I'd expect soft vests to stop most 7.62 AK hits, but with an unacceptable back face deflection = severe blunt trauma.

[RMC]

Originally posted by tiny_tanker:

On the IED thing, body armor does increase survivability, but to get maximum protection the side and shoulder plates have to be worn. Of course it only protects the torso from trauma, and the majority of casualties are due to damage to the extremities.

Again, I am not saying that the armor is of no value against IEDs. I'm saying whatever difference there is between Dragon Skin and Interceptor is negigible against IEDs. The armor sets are not designed or tested against any kind of IED attack.

[Battlefront.com]

Yeah, I forgot about the weight difference. As Splinty pointed out, soldiers are already overloaded as it is. IIRC the rule of thumb for an approach march is to have no more than 50% of the soldier's body weight in gear. If the average soldier weighs 170 pounds (that's just a guess), an 80 pound loadout is almost at that 50% mark. The problem, though, is it's near the mark for an approach march, not a patrol! The combat weight should be something like 20% of the soldier's body weight, not 50%.

Ah, just found some stats. This is from a book written a few years ago discussing loadout goals, as set by the Army:

Combat Weight (Rifleman) - 32 pounds

Combat Weight (Support Weapon) - 48 pounds

Approach March - 72 pounds

Dragon Skin all on its own surpasses Combat Weight for Riflemen and maxes out the Support Weapon max. With the rest of the gear added it surpasses Approach March. Obviously, weight alone is a reason to pass over DragonSkin.

Now, for a body guard or someone who only needs to be protected, not fight, Dragon Skin is viable. If all that person has on him is the armor and clothing, the weight is well within reason. I suspect that's who is using Dragon Skin.

RMC's point about IEDs is valid. More protection is always better, of course, in an absolute sense. However, relatively speaking, 20% better protection from an IED that can punch through both sides of a Bradley isn't going to make a difference. Not even a little bit. Interceptor armor is probably just as effective at stopping the side effects of an IED blast as Dragon Skin. Yes, it protects a greater amount of the body (the improved Interceptor increases the protection area too), but the face, neck, arms, legs, etc. are just as exposed when using either. It is already true that is where the majority of wounds are sustained. A couple years back I got a rather graphic slide show of that by the head of tramua surgery for one of the frontline med units during OIF. In other words, the body armor is already largely defeating torso and some head wounds, so now the majority of cases are extremity wounds. Dragon Skin does nothing to change that.

Steve

[Battlefront.com]

John,

I saw that Discovery show. It is impressive indeed. There are significant limitations to it, of course, but the basic concept of having armor that is able to deal with blunt force trauma is extremely valuable. A very large amount of the injuries suffered by IEDs come from the overpressure effects, not the actual physical things flying around. Nothing short of a fully enclosed suit will do anything to combat those ill effects.

Steve

[John Kettler]

flamingknives,

The test firings I saw included an AR-15 at 16 foot range. The shot did a little more damage to the panel, but nothing got through and the clay was essentially unscathed, too. Pistol/SMG cartridges did even less. Firings were done in comparison with earlier armor steel inserts, which didn't fare well at all and deformed the clay considerably when hit with 7.62 x 39 and 5.56. Talking shattered ribs as secondary missiles!

Steve,

I'm not sure which program you're describing. Are we talking earlier Hurtubise stuff here or IBA?

From context, I'm thinking the former, for being rammed by a pickup or whacked with a baseball bat would certainly create blunt force trauma. Then again, maybe it's the Trojan suit, the militarized version of the fully evolved Ursus suit.

Regards,

John Kettler

[JonS]

Originally posted by Sgt.Joch:

... it was also stated that Dragon Skin is being officially issued to army personnel involved in what they call "high risk" missions, although it was not explained what these were.

My cynical guess would be that it's based primarily on rank and REMF-ness.

[tiny_tanker]

JonS

Hate to say it but your probably 100% right.

RMC

Sorry if I came off as disagreeing, but I agree with you. Sometimes my fingers don't type everything my brain thinks...

On the weight issue, I think it may be a big load of hors s#it. The Dragon skin already gives you the side protection that the add-on plates for the interceptor gives. So comparing the base models is insane, why not throw all the goodies that the guy in the field will have on it and then compare the weights. Then dunk them both in water to see how it'll feel when a guy is sweating his ass off while wearing it.

[Apocalypse 31]

Originally posted by Normal Dude:

47.5 pounds!!?? Screw whatever "protection" it gives, we'd die of heat stroke first!

Uh. I'll guarantee the Interceptor I'm wearing now weights ALOT more than that.

Add the full ammo load, 2 radios, GPS, and first aid kit on there and you'll find that after a few hours your shoulders go numb.

We train hard to fight hard.

47 pounds is nothing.

Some of my soldiers carry entire breaching kits on their backs. Some guys are carrying up to 75lbs on their person.

[ChrisND]

That's 47 lbs, before you add the equipment. That is just the base layer. The Intercepter is 20-something before you add on the gear.

And yes, I know all about the weight. I was an RTO and computer.

[Apocalypse 31]

Oh boy, then. Thats alot. The MINIMAL weight load would probably be close to 75lbs. If you were an RTO I'd say close to 80 or 100lbs, or breach man.

Thats crazy.

[Battlefront.com]

Yeah, with that kind of weight it is an either or thing. Either you go out with Dragon Skin and a pop gun with a couple of mags, or you go out with Interceptor and a little more than that.

I wish they could figure out a way to get the weight down for you guys. It's just nuts how much stuff they expect you to lug around in 120 deg heat. As Lt. Mike says, it isn't that guys can't do it... but certainly a 25% reduction in overall weightload would be a big help!

I don't think much is going to change until the Army starts getting serious about alternative technologies out there. For example, caseless ammo. 200 rounds worth of brass and mags adds up! Of course the Army will probably replace any weight savings with more junk to lug around. Somehow they always manage to do that

Steve

[ChrisND]

Yep, when I was in Iraq, I was wearing the IBA, battle load-out with the standard 210/2, CLS kit, two radios with batteries, a ballistic computer, other FDC crap, supplies for 2 days and by that time I was pushing 90-100 lbs. And I weighed 150 lbs! I needed help sometimes just to get up. It would get to the point that more folks were suffering injuries from the weight, than from enemies. Especially with having to train off of deployments.

Steve you are soo right, once materials science gets the weight of body armor down, I bet they will just make us carry more gear. Probably batteries, you wouldn't believe how much those things can weigh if you carry enough of them. Especially those damned rechargeable radio batteries. Like carrying a brick.

[Apocalypse 31]

Originally posted by Normal Dude:

Probably batteries, you wouldn't believe how much those things can weigh if you carry enough of them. Especially those damned rechargeable radio batteries. Like carrying a brick.

Yeah seriously. I think the batteries actually weight more than the radios. Thats one of the better reasons to be in the cav

[Tarquelne]

I don't think much is going to change until the Army starts getting serious about alternative technologies out there. For example, caseless ammo. 200 rounds worth of brass and mags adds up!

Caseless ammo?! What about the robot "dogs" that're being researched. They have lots of advantages over boring things like caseless ammo.

They'd be super-expensive.

They'd be cool.

They'd be very high tech. (Yeah, that in itself is an advantage.)

They'd weigh a lot themselves.

And, most importantly:

Of course the Army will probably replace any weight savings with more junk to lug around.

They could carry all the extra stuff, leaving the soldiers free to carry everything they carry now.

No need to change. Just buy more stuff!

Your lack of vision can be worrying.

[Battlefront.com]

Hehe... actually, the Army has experimented with a sort of Squad pack mule thing IIRC. The main problem is the logistics of keeping them running. That and probably expense!

One of the theories behind Stryker based infantry is that they keep most of their kit stowed in the vehicle itself. This is nothing new for Mech Infantry, who have had their tracks to stash stuff in, but the tradeoff has been smaller numbers of boots due to the more limited seating. Now Stryker ICVs provide the same footprint as light infantry platoon, but with the ability to lug around as much gear as the Mech guys. This is reflected in CM:SF. You can run over to a Stryker and "top off" your ammo.

Steve