So just to be clear...

[Stirling]

Did human vs AI QBs make the release version?

[rune]

Yes, but only on pre-made maps.

Rune

[Panzer76]

Originally posted by rune:

Yes, but only on pre-made maps.

Rune

1. Whats the reason for that?

2. Will this be patched later?

[Cameroon]

Originally posted by Panzer76:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by rune:

Yes, but only on pre-made maps.

Rune

1. Whats the reason for that?

2. Will this be patched later? </font>

[rune]

No patch, and it has been stated for months. The maps are too complocated for the AI to make anything. Pre-made maps with ai plans for both sides will allow you to play QB against human or AI.

Rune

[Joe Shaw]

Originally posted by rune:

No patch, and it has been stated for months. The maps are too complocated for the AI to make anything. Pre-made maps with ai plans for both sides will allow you to play QB against human or AI.

Rune

rune ... when you say "pre-made maps with AI plans for both sides", I presume that would include such maps created by the user?

I could probably do a search but I consider asking you to BE doing a search. The answer may not make as much sense but it'll be quicker.

Joe

p.s. Could you possibly make up your mind? Your name displays as rune but you sign as Rune ... how about a compromise ... Idiot ... that would work for everyone.

[Sergei]

Originally posted by Joe Shaw:

rune ... when you say "pre-made maps with AI plans for both sides", I presume that would include such maps created by the user?

No, maps only by Rune can be used in QB's.

Hopefully this answer satisfies you.

[Cpl Steiner]

Originally posted by Sergei:

No, maps only by Rune can be used in QB's.

You're joking, right?

[Becket]

If memory serves, Sergei has been serious only once in his tenure here, and that was an error.

[Sergei]

How dare you suspect my word!

[Dirtweasle]

Rune, I think the part that is confusing me now is where you say;

Pre-made maps with ai plans for both sides will allow you to play QB against human or AI.

What do you mean with ai plans for both sides?

My understanding up to now was that no QB auto-gen maps, you'd have to use a human made, aka hand built map, but I do not recall having to also create ai plans for quick-battles.

Can you or other BFC offical please clarify?

[SGT_56M]

AI plans or for if the user wishes to play a QB single player as either side.

If you only want a QB for play vs a human opponent, then the plans can be omitted or as simple as a single static plan with very little detail.

The game will ship with a number of QB maps ready for play. The user community I’m sure will quickly create a vast library of additional maps, suitable for single or Human vs Human play.

The editor is really easy and fun to use.

[Dirtweasle]

That makes sense. ...not that I am happy with it, if that is correct, but it makes sense.

If true, is that new information to the larger CM communitty or just new to me? My memory is that the CMSF AI would not be able to actually build the maps for the QBs is all, users would have to rely on hand map maps, but this is the first I can recall learning that in addition to do a solo QB someone is going to have to build AI tasking / orders / plans or whatever you call it to go with a map. Can't say that is really what I would call a Quick Battle, more like a user scenario.

[rune]

It is true, but remember each side has up to 5 plans, so the battle will not always play the same way. Yes, it takes time to do correctly, but well worth it in the long run, especially for qb against the AI. Sgt is also correct, if playing another human, AI plans are NOT used anyway.

Rune

[Stirling]

Seems like the Q has been taken out of QBs.

[Vergeltungswaffe]

This thread talks a bit about it.

[rune]

No it hasn't. You select the forces and terrain and the game starts. The maps are randomly picked, so as more maps are added with AI plans if playing against the computer, or plain maps for 2 humans, the more radon the battle. It is not that difficult to understand.

Yes, Sergei was joking. Careful, he is armed with a toothpick.

Joebob, If you still dont understand I can try explaing it to you in your Native texan... a series of grunts and burps. Now leave me alone, am trying to watch the Chelsea vs Bolton match from last year. Ballock just scored on a header in addon time right before the half.

Rune

[ July 03, 2007, 12:52 PM: Message edited by: rune ]

[Joe Shaw]

Originally posted by rune:

No it hasn't. You select the forces and terrain and the game starts. The maps are randomly picked, so as more maps are added with AI plans if playing against the computer, or plain maps for 2 humans, the more radon the battle. It is not that difficult to understand.

Yes, Sergei was joking. Careful, he is armed with a toothpick.

Joebob, If you still dont understand I can try explaing it to you in your Native texan... a series of grunts and burps. Now leave me alone, am trying to watch the Chelsea vs Bolton match from last year. Ballock just scored on a header in addon time right before the half.

Rune

Okay, obviously SOMEONE got up on the wrong side of Chicago.

Joe

[kgsan]

Originally posted by rune:

No it hasn't. You select the forces and terrain and the game starts. The maps are randomly picked, so as more maps are added with AI plans if playing against the computer, or plain maps for 2 humans, the more radon the battle. It is not that difficult to understand.

. . . .

Rune

Well, I certainly don't wish to prod Mr. Rune past the point of endurance, but can somebody confirm what he has said. Must the map have AI plans already scripted? If so, how can the AI follow scripted battle plans if the human player can pick or randomize the AI force?

If the above is correct, and I hope I have it wrong, then it sounds like QBs are now just way to randomly pick a game from pre-existing scenarios on your HD rather than a way to generate a scenario according to player chosen parameters.

[ July 03, 2007, 05:46 PM: Message edited by: kgsan ]

[Becket]

I think the following might help. Mind you, I don't have the game, but I've pieced this together and expected the answer to be as stated.

In CMx1, let's face facts: the AI does not attack as well as we would like. It charges flags, and that's about it. A good scenario desinger can get a lot out of that, but did you ever play QBs where you defended against an AI attack? Did you play more than one? If you played more than one, do you like shooting fish in a barrel?

CMx2 is designed to overcome those flaws. The flag system is gone, completely. The AI is now driven by sets of plans, each designed to achieve various objectives set on the map.

A set of plans includes more options than can be used in one game; the AI might have a set of 9 plans, organized into sets of threes. From this, the AI chooses one plan from each of the three sets. The next game, it might choose the same, or a completely different set.

Because the AI is driven by plans, QBs have to (a) have maps with objectives built into them, and ( have plans for the AI.

This shouldn't be a surprise to anyone. We already knew that there were no random maps, and this is just another facet of that: the map designer must design their map in total - not just the map environs but also the AI plans - if the designer wants the map to be playable against the AI.

[SGT_56M]

Becket explains the logic perfectly.

Also, let me quote a heading int he manual if I may:

"Unlearning Combat Mission"

This is a new game built on the fundamentals of the original series and maintains the greatness of the original while wedding out some of the less perfected of the features.

Here's another thought; would you rather have less enjoyable random maps that don't require any creativity from designers? Or would you rather have outstanding QB's that require some work on the designer's part and none from the player?

Also, if I am not mistaken, QB’s can be derived from “Baked” scenarios which means for tournament play, people will not be able to preview or edit the scenarios prior to play. I’d need Rune to verify that though.

[rleete]

Originally posted by Joe Shaw:

[QB]Okay, obviously SOMEONE got up on the wrong side of Chicago.

There's a correct side of Chicago?

[JOGR]

I'm a bit worried. Partly the reason for CMx1 longevity is the QB's. To quickly and easily create "Quick" unscripted "Battles" without the need to open some editor was a bliss. Having random maps with TacAI purchasing units on it's own and deploying on random maps is what made every QB interesting. More often then not the TacAI performed pretty good with believable defensive tactics. It's not too shabby on the offensive either. It's simply the best AI in a tactical 3D wargame.. ever.

I still prefer QBs because I don't have time for lengthy campaigns and I rarely play online anymore.

Oh well.. nothing else to do but hope for the best. I put my trust in BF

[ July 03, 2007, 06:21 PM: Message edited by: jogr ]

[aka_tom_w]

trust me on this one

if you are interested in solo play against the AI there will be hundreds if not thousands of scenarios to play with in a few months once folks grok the AI editor in the scenario editor.

Don't worry about the "Quick Battle" there will be user made scenario's a plenty with REAL human INTEL and deviousness in their AI scripted responses that will vary EVERY time you play them.

REALLY

just give it a few months and the number of crazy solo one player vs the AI scenarios will blossom, AND they will be good and they will be challenging and fun to play.

you gotta trust me on this one!

[rune]

What I said is correct, You can setup AI plans and NOT worry about the units. You select the setup area for each plan, and the movement locations, by time. You can setup 5 different plans each plan can have 8 sets of units. Remember, this only needs to be done IF you are playing against the AI. Maps are attack/defend or meeting engagement, and are divided into terrain types.

Again, this is necessary because maps are MUCH more detailed and complicated then CMX1. Tom is correct, I expect maps to come out in the dozens after the release and learning curve of making maps/scenarios.

So, as a player, you still get to choose battle type, terrain type, and forces. The map is randomly picked by the terrain/type and if you play against the ai, a ai plan is selected.

However, the maps have to be created manually. The computer cannot generate a map on its own.

Rune

PS For those not in the know the banter between Joebob and myself is a carryover from the Peng Challenge thread. Take conversation between the two of us with a grain of salt.