Shockforce, the RTS.

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by athkatla:

I WANT a million pounds and a villa in France, but I ain't gonna get it!

Keep sitting around playing CM:SF and eating donuts and you're halfway there. :mad:

[ChrisND]

Was the title of this thread inspired by Spaceballs?

[athkatla]

Originally posted by Tuomio:

Cannot issue orders while paused, when using the Elite difficulty setting.

I would say that is fair enough when you choose to play at the highest difficulty.

[Exel]

Originally posted by athkatla:

Also you guys moaning about not being able to work out all your commands in RT mode, there is a pause button (ESC) and you can give orders while paused.

Two things. First, you can't pause in multiplayer. Second, like Sirocco said, it's a general UI problem - RTS just makes it worse. The UI is not great even for TBS, but what is tolerable there (thanks to ample time to use the UI) can be a game-breaker for RTS. If you want the RealTime mode in multiplayer to be about tactics and not about who can work the interface the fastest, you need to streamline the controls - a LOT.

[Roter Stern]

The only thing this game needs is proper hotkeys.. you know, like in good old CMx1 days - a unique key for each unique command... M for Move, F for Fast Move, A for Advance, etc ... none of this I is for the Command-Which-Appears-is-the-Top-Left-Corner-of-the-Currently-Selected-Tab

Ohh and had to pop the K-key out with a screwdriver out of my keyboard, just so I would stop ordering my tanks to Bail-Out by accident...

[Exel]

Originally posted by The Louch:

The only thing this game needs is proper hotkeys.. you know, like in good old CMx1 days - a unique key for each unique command... M for Move, F for Fast Move, A for Advance, etc ...

For TBS mode, yes. However for the RTS mode that is not sufficient. You need to be able to give simple movement commands to multiple units at the same time with a single lasso & click - not with a half a dozen of clicks. That has been the industry standard for RTS games for well over a decade now, so there's really no reason to not have it in CMSF. Reinventing the wheel is not a good idea if you end up with a square box.

[MrWombat]

Originally posted by athkatla:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Tuomio:

Cannot issue orders while paused, when using the Elite difficulty setting.

I would say that is fair enough when you choose to play at the highest difficulty. </font>

[Panzer76]

Agree.

[Sirocco]

I read here that you can lassoo multiple units. I assume that's different than double clicking a HQ unit. But instead of RTFM it should be a simple case of left clicking and dragging to lassoo units. That's the behaviour we've all learned.

[rune]

Try shift left click and drag.

Rune

[John Catsack]

If anything, I'd say that the CMSF control system is better for real time combat. It's the only RTS game I've played where you could actually plan out orders and execute plans simultaneously. I use the halt order to pause two groups while I give them orders to move out and attack, and then I can send them both off at the same time by unhalting. To me, that seems to negate the delay of any "extra clicks" one might have to make

I played CoH extensively, and I wouldn't say that the TacAI is any more reliable there than in CMSF

[UrbanCoyote]

Originally posted by John Catsack:

It's the only RTS game I've played where you could actually plan out orders and execute plans simultaneously. I use the halt order to pause two groups while I give them orders to move out and attack, and then I can send them both off at the same time by unhalting.

*Smacks head* Why didn't I think of that. Good tip!

[Exel]

Originally posted by John Catsack:

If anything, I'd say that the CMSF control system is better for real time combat. It's the only RTS game I've played where you could actually plan out orders and execute plans simultaneously. I use the halt order to pause two groups while I give them orders to move out and attack, and then I can send them both off at the same time by unhalting. To me, that seems to negate the delay of any "extra clicks" one might have to make

I played CoH extensively, and I wouldn't say that the TacAI is any more reliable there than in CMSF

You're missing the point. Versatile doesn't have to mean clumsy. With some pretty basic changes (fundamental maybe for the code) you can have the same functionality with immensely more streamlined usability. 5 clicks to make a unit simply to move is just not acceptable for a time-sensitive RTS - and though it's more bearable in turn-based mode, streamlining the UI wouldn't hurt there either.

[magomar]

I agree that the UI is clumsy

The new command system implies too many clicks for doing simple things, and you have to look carefully at the control panels to know at which panel you are (I am surprised that the command buttons are large and color coded, which is good, while the panel buttons (M,C,S,A) are so small), or you will end up selecting the wrong command ! I also dislike that there is no way to go to a given control panel directly, instead you have to cycle through them. In summary, the command system doesn't help to playing RT.

[traemyn]

I agree with OP and Exel. RTS controls have had the time to evolve over the years to become more efficient, and that fact seems to have been ignored with this game.

[athkatla]

What is clumsy to some, is not to others. I have no problems at all with the way the game works, and I have already had lots of enjoyment from the game. Of course people have different opinions, but what are the developers to do, make it right for those of you who want it changed, or make it wrong for those of us who like it as is??

[Exel]

Originally posted by athkatla:

What is clumsy to some, is not to others. I have no problems at all with the way the game works, and I have already had lots of enjoyment from the game. Of course people have different opinions, but what are the developers to do, make it right for those of you who want it changed, or make it wrong for those of us who like it as is??

Clumsy or not, 5 clicks to order a unit to move is just plain SLOW. In RealTime mode where you have plenty of units to order without a pause, you don't have spare time to waste. Your precious tank will die before you can issue it the order to reverse back to safety. In RT mode the matches are now resolved by who works the UI the fastest, not by tactical genious. CMSF has become the click-fest it has desperately wanted not to be, and thanks solely to the command interface. The depth and versatility of the commands is worthless when you don't have time to execute them.

[athkatla]

Originally posted by Exel:

Then how is it that many of us are thoroughly enjoying the game and getting 'Total Victory' screens when we play? And I very rarely pause, neither am I flying around the map clicking furiously here there and everywhere. As someone stated earlier, SLOW, SLOW, SLOW will win the day. I can imagine a 'rusher' having problems with the UI but this is not a game for 'rushers', it's a game for thoughtful tactical deployments which cuts out the problem you keep on about.

[Battlefront.com]

Athkatla is correct when he said this:

What is clumsy to some, is not to others.

To say that RT is impossible to play is ridiculous. It is the ONLY way I play, and I don't exactly suck at the game. I also only use PAUSE when I've either got to pee or look for a bug of some sort. So here I am... just your average person with 2 hands and 10 fingers, but no problems using the UI. I know I am not alone either.

NOW! Having said that... are there things we can do to make even more people comfortable with the system in RT? Yup, that is entirely the case. Therefore, expect some refinement. Me and the boys down at the Testing Lab have been burning the midnight oil (ok, 4am is a little past midnight, but most of them are foreigners in strange timezones) and we think we have some nice improvements that the RT and WeGo people will like. I just have to get some sense of what is practical to code and when we can get them to you before I will say exactly what it is we are planning on doing.

MrWombat... I will make sure Pause gets put back into Elite. It's already on my list

Exel,

Clumsy or not, 5 clicks to order a unit to move is just plain SLOW.

As others have said, slow and steady wins battles, it doesn't lose them. WeGo folks will have more problems with this concept than others because in WeGo if you aren't futzing with every unit every 60 seconds, you aren't playing the game Different play style.

Also, there is a reason why you want to keep those 5 moves sometimes instead of circle and click. CM's terrain is very detailed. Wild clicks like that, at least in built up terrain, are just invites to disaster. It's like telling a taxi cab driver in the middle of a city and say "go there" and then be upset with the driver when he/she doesn't take you down the EXACT street you want. If you really wanted to look at a certain monument along the way to the airport, you should have told the driver instead of assuming which route would be taken. The taxi driver probably took the most direct route, and that is often not the way you want to do things.

Also, waypoints allow your soldiers to regroup. If you use one move for a long distance your guys will get spread out far more than you want them too.

Anyhoo... we're not deaf to the calls for some improvements. So expect improvements. But I'll never accept the argument that it is as broken as some say it is. If it were I wouldn't be able to kick so much butt when playing RT

Steve

[Percopius]

Exel, you keep sayingh 8 clicks. Its one. You hit 'B' (move, quick), and click once. You are so dogmatic. Can you at least be correct when describe the game. What is the minimum number of hot key / clicks to move a unit? One hit of 'b', then one click. What is the minimum number of keys / clicks to face a unit? One hit of 'n', and one click. What is the minimum amount of keys / clicks are nessary to target a unit? One hit of 'g' and onbe click. I could go on.

[Percopius]

Or 5 clicks even

[thewood]

Hold on a minute. Halt doesn't kill the orders? Didn't realize that. That does change my perspective a little on RT vs. WEGO.

[LuckyStrike]

Well Steve you have had how many years to get used to the interface? It could be in chinese and you could be proficient in that time.

Are you seriously arguing that the user interface slowing down the entry of orders is a good thing?

Slow and steady consideration of orders might win battles, not slow and steady ENTRY of those orders. I want to be free to plan my next move, not plan what key in a sequence of 4 or 5 to press next.

[thelmia]

I don't mind RTS because the tac AI isn't up to WEGO. Units can be relied on to fire, but that's about it. They need their hands held, especially compared to the old games.

When we add in that WEGO is gone from multiplayer, and the AI is really dumb, WEGO is pretty much dead.

The interface is a bit clunky for an RTS. A right click move with a menu for speed would be nice.

[Fetchez la Vache]

Just a daft suggestion, but I found working in RT mode much easier when I dropped my resolution from desktop (1600x1200) to 1024x768. Bigger tabs and buttons!

Also I still fail to understand why people are struggling with RT mode on Veteran. Simply ESC to pause, issue orders just like WEGO and then unpause to have them carried out. Frankly that system kicks the old 1min WEGO in the goolies. Maybe it's the whole concept of "RTS" and associated negative connotations with some people here?

People are going to have to learn to use no-pause on Elite or TCP/IP play. But frankly once I've trained my fingers (and I'm getting there) to use the keyboard I don't see that being much of an issue for myself.