Rocket/missile flight characteristics?

[John Kettler]

Hark! Methinks I heareth mine appellation!

Interesting ideas, BigDuke 6. Let's see what we can do with them. While I have no doubt that the usual form of cyclone fence can be readily pierced by a TOW (optimistically assuming kinetic punchthrough sans warhead detonation), I'd expect that such an event would either strip outright or severely ding and bend the guidance fins, most likely causing the TOW to crash right away, and at the very best severely compromising the operator's ability to properly guide the missile. I can readily imagine a sudden departure from the narrow field of view of the missile tracker (swerve, pitch up, pitch down, etc.), resulting in essentially instantaneous loss of guidance and, yes, missile crash. A target within a few feet of a cyclone fence might be hittable, but overall, I think cutting the guidance wire in this instance at least becomes a nonissue. The missile's a mess before the guidance wire's even exposed to harm. The situation becomes even worse if the missile deadcenters one of the fairly substantial wires/wire junctions making up the fence, for there you may find outright damage to the missile body proper.

Barbed wire, though, strikes me as a better exemplar of the approach you suggest. Far more flexible than cyclone fencing and much tougher, if the TOW hits it directly, the missile's toast (possible exception: if TOW2A, precursor charge

blasts strands clear; don't know what this does, though, regarding main warhead detonation). But if the airframe avoids destruction and the fins don't snag or strip off, then I feel confident in expecting razor tape to be a severe hazard to the all-importance guidance wires. Ordinary barbed wire deployed as taut strands (say, cattle fencing) strikes me as being more problematic, considering that the wire itself is smooth and round, with barbs which are roughly an airframe's width apart and are tapered (enhancing slideoff chances), but concertina offers many more snag opportunities, not just from orientation but from a relatively high density compared to the above barbed wire fence model.

I could well be wrong, for this analysis is based

not on direct knowledge but a mental model of a highly dynamic interaction, but if I thought someone was going to fling a TOW my way, I think I'd be fairly okay with 10 ft. cyclone fencing topped by rolls of razor tape, a common configuration at many prisons. I rather doubt a TOW would survive flying through that fence, and any attempt to overfly it would, in my view, offer a considerable threat to TOW guidance wires. Of

course, good standoff from that fence is a must.

Current or former TOW gunners may be able to prove otherwise, cite firing trials I never heard of, etc., but I will say that in all the TOW shot footage I've seen, I don't recall ever seeing one across or through razor tape, barbed wire or cyclone fencing. Every shot I ever saw was against a target with zero intervening wires of any sort, typically out across the open desert.

Regards,

John Kettler

[c3k]

Gents,

Never fired a TOW, but don't the guidance wires spool off of the tail of the missile? They're definately NOT dragged across two miles of ground from a spool on the launcher. With missile mounted spools (MMS ), the wire will be stationary where it falls. Hence, I wouldn't think it mattered what the missile passes through. At least, as far as the wire is concerned. I agree with John Kettler that the damage to the missile would be the controlling factor.

Just my opinion/sense.

Thanks,

Ken

[Andrew H.]

I don't know much about this area at all, but it seems to me that a wire strong enough to spool out behind a missile, where it will be (1) presumably exposed to some heat; and (2) required to bear the weight of all 3500' of wire (or whatever the length is); is going to be strong enough not to be damaged by being dragged across some fencing. I don't think that there would really be much friction there - IIRC, the missiles are not travelling at a tremendously high rate of speed.

To the extent that there is a vulnerability, it seems like it would be maximized by having the fence placed as far away from the target as possible (so that as much of the wire as possible is dragged across the fence). Unfortunately for the fencer, this is the most difficult place to put the fence (or the easiest to circumvent) - the easiest place to put the fence is close to the vehicles you want to protect, but (assuming that the fence has any effect at all), this is the least useful location. Even if the fence were 100 meters out from the tanks (that's more than 18 rods!), would it have much effect if the wire were snapped there - I mean, are there typically adjustments made in the final 100 meters?

Ideally, of course, you would completely enclose the missile-firers in several layers of fencing.

[John D Salt]

Originally posted by c3k:

Never fired a TOW, but don't the guidance wires spool off of the tail of the missile?

Yes, you are quite right.

All the best,

John.

[Battlefront.com]

My understanding is the wire is on the missile as well, which is no accident. If the missile were dragging the wire it would have to be pretty robust because of all that force and friction. Much better to "drop" the wire as you go. That eliminates the problems of snagging and tearing. Much like the difference between playing out an extension cord as you walk instead of grabbing one end and trying to drag it through a maze of "dense urban terrain", such as chair legs, sofas, etc.

Steve

[John Kettler]

Troops,

The wire does indeed spool off a bobbin in the back of the TOW. In fact, it was because of a major improvement in bobbin winding technique that TOW's range was able to be upped from 3 km to 3.75 km. I have zero data on this end regarding the tensile strength, cut resistance and other properties of that wire. Perhaps a kindly former or current TOW gunner can enlighten us?

Regards,

John Kettler

[shlitzzlipzz@hotmail.com]

I know dat but must not share it. You are slightly off.

There is a good Israeli trick to bangk all this out.

[Dschugaschwili]

Having the wire on the missile has the added advantage that any part of the wire is exposed to the heat of the exhaust gases for only a fraction of a second compared to several seconds if the fixed end was on the missile.

[c3k]

Hmmm,

Of course, having a spool on the LAUNCHER would have a benefit.

Imagine you see a group of 100 or so enemy ahead. Quickly, you launch your missile to the RIGHT of the group, dragging a wire bundle behing it. Then, as the missile passes the group, you command a hard LEFT turn, sweeping the wire bundle BEHIND them. You keep turning the missile until it has passed all the enemy and comes back towards you.

Now, as the missile heads back towards you, you give another hard LEFT turn... As the missile crosses over it's initial track, a veteran missileer could give a series of commands resulting in the missile tying a slip-knot in its wire bundle. As the missile flies off, the wires tighten on the enemy. This is a very effective way to capture and secure large numbers of prisoners...

Ken

[FAI]

Originally posted by c3k:

Hmmm,

Of course, having a spool on the LAUNCHER would have a benefit.

Imagine you see a group of 100 or so enemy ahead. Quickly, you launch your missile to the RIGHT of the group, dragging a wire bundle behing it. Then, as the missile passes the group, you command a hard LEFT turn, sweeping the wire bundle BEHIND them. You keep turning the missile until it has passed all the enemy and comes back towards you.

Now, as the missile heads back towards you, you give another hard LEFT turn... As the missile crosses over it's initial track, a veteran missileer could give a series of commands resulting in the missile tying a slip-knot in its wire bundle. As the missile flies off, the wires tighten on the enemy. This is a very effective way to capture and secure large numbers of prisoners...

Ken

Aah, reminds of the old blaster launcher of XCOM.... Now THAT'S a weapon system that will rule the battlefield...

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by c3k:

Hmmm,

Of course, having a spool on the LAUNCHER would have a benefit.

Imagine you see a group of 100 or so enemy ahead. Quickly, you launch your missile to the RIGHT of the group, dragging a wire bundle behing it. Then, as the missile passes the group, you command a hard LEFT turn, sweeping the wire bundle BEHIND them. You keep turning the missile until it has passed all the enemy and comes back towards you.

Now, as the missile heads back towards you, you give another hard LEFT turn... As the missile crosses over it's initial track, a veteran missileer could give a series of commands resulting in the missile tying a slip-knot in its wire bundle. As the missile flies off, the wires tighten on the enemy. This is a very effective way to capture and secure large numbers of prisoners...

I think you'd better stick with Pla-Doh™ a little longer. I don't think you are quite ready for the more advanced toys yet.

Michael

[Peter Cairns]

Michael Emrys,

I was thinking more that he should maybe just be left in a corner with a ball of wool.

Peter.

[juan_gigante]

He'd probably hang himself with it while trying to capture a large number of prisoners.

[Kurtz]

The wire is definitely spooled out of the missile.

On some missiles, the engine is located in the mid-section of the missile (firing at an angle) because the rear of the missile is filled with wire spools and tracking beacons. The engine is usally only fired in the first few seconds anyway.

Firing over power lines might cause problems if the wires are not insulated.