Is this a bug or was I just really really unlucky ? ...

[Rocky Balboa]

I was playing one of the pre-built scenarios against the AI this weekend and I had a situation where a T-72 came down a street and parked next to a building. One of my AT-teams engaged with a Javelin (@ ~ 100M) and scored what I thought was a kill although there was no smoke from the 72 it didn't appear to move or traverse turret. I few seconds latter(20 secs) the same AT-team fired its second Javelin and again there was impact but no smoke. Another AT-team moved into position on the roof of another building and spotted the same T-72 and engaged with a Javelin(@ ~ 130M) and once again there was a big boom but no smoke from the tank and it still was not moving. Again the same AT-Team fired it's second missile at the Tank and still no smoke but it appeared visually that the Javelin scored a hit.

At this point I'm thinking surely this tank is dead and I'm miffed that my AT-Teams are wasting precious missiles on already dead targets when there are more live targets to engage. At this point however I'm guessing 1-1.5 minutes after the first Javelin fired its first missile, the T-72 fires its main gun and engages one of the AT-Teams.

So after a total of 4 Javelin rounds firing and appearing to hit the target, this tank is still able to return fire. Should this be possible or am I just the victim of a very nasty RNG.

[SgtMuhammed]

I think you just got really unlucky. I have pretty good results with my Javelins but not perfect. It is possible for a tank to survive a hit or even several if the numbers come up right. If it keeps happening then I would be more inclined to call it a bug.

[thewood]

Every now and then I get an indestructible T72. I can pit round after round anywhere on it and it keeps on ticking. This has to some kind of random bug. I have seen several ther posts about this as well.

I haven't noticed if its just ATGM, or any tyoe of round that is doing this.

[SgtMuhammed]

I have seen a couple that seem to be on roids and take several hits to kill, either main gun or ATGMs, but have yet to run into any that won't die.

[Rocky Balboa]

Originally posted by sgtgoody (esq):

I think you just got really unlucky. I have pretty good results with my Javelins but not perfect. It is possible for a tank to survive a hit or even several if the numbers come up right. If it keeps happening then I would be more inclined to call it a bug.

I hear you and its probably sour grapes on my part because up until this battle Javelins were pretty much one shot one kill especially against a stationary target.

Upon closer inspection of this particular engagement, I did notice that the T-72 was very close to the building and there was a balcony directly overhead. So I'm wondering if the trajectory of the missile is striking the balcony and not hitting the tank. I'll have to investigate this a little further to see if this is indeed what is happening.

If this is the case then it is a bug that needs to be addressed as this could be a very gamey tactic that could be used to protect an AFV, just park under a balcony and your safe.

In reality its possible that the first round would hit the balcony and destroy it but the second and subsequent rounds should hit the AFV.

[Statisoris]

Was that T72 the high end TURMS-T kind ? These are tough as heck, I had one of these take four to five Javelin hits before being disabled or knocked out. I think its their newer reactive armor or something, but these seem to take a beating pretty well.

[Rocky Balboa]

Originally posted by Statisoris:

Was that T72 the high end TURMS-T kind ? These are tough as heck, I had one of these take four to five Javelin hits before being disabled or knocked out. I think its their newer reactive armor or something, but these seem to take a beating pretty well.

I'm not sure what variant it was, I'll have to check that when I get a chance. But its my understanding that Javelin should be able to defeat any known armor especially when using top-down attack mode where armor is normally much weaker.

[tankibanki]

Originally posted by Rocky Balboa:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Statisoris:

Was that T72 the high end TURMS-T kind ? These are tough as heck, I had one of these take four to five Javelin hits before being disabled or knocked out. I think its their newer reactive armor or something, but these seem to take a beating pretty well.

I'm not sure what variant it was, I'll have to check that when I get a chance. But its my understanding that Javelin should be able to defeat any known armor especially when using top-down attack mode where armor is normally much weaker. </font>

[KNac]

I got this bug too, undestructible tanks. is odd and happens soemtimes don't know why. I think it may have to do something the way LOF and fire is tracked. It happens usually when the tanks is static at one spot.

[molotov_billy]

I've had indestructible tanks as well. One random tank out of a platoon seems to be completely impervious to Javelins (8 to 10 direct hits) - every other tank was taken out with a single hit.

[birdstrike]

Originally posted by tankibanki:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Rocky Balboa:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Statisoris:

Was that T72 the high end TURMS-T kind ? These are tough as heck, I had one of these take four to five Javelin hits before being disabled or knocked out. I think its their newer reactive armor or something, but these seem to take a beating pretty well.

I'm not sure what variant it was, I'll have to check that when I get a chance. But its my understanding that Javelin should be able to defeat any known armor especially when using top-down attack mode where armor is normally much weaker. </font>

[thewood]

I just saw the death clock for the first time yesterday. Good to know something made the transition.

[Rocky Balboa]

This particular example wasn't a death clock issue as you'll notice in the OP the AFV in question returns fire after taking multiple hits.

[flamingknives]

Point to note from the real-life perspective:

Under a certain distance (150m?) Javelins will not use top attack - there isn't range to climb and descend without snapping the missile in half - so it goes for direct attack instead. If the target is an uprated T72 with ERA it could well defeat Javelin over the frontal arc.

[Rocky Balboa]

Ok that's good to know, I'll have to check the distance that each missile was fired. I know the game graphics simulated a top-down attack but it is possible that the data on the javelin and what the game simulates graphically could be out of sync.

Does anyone know the minimum range in which the Javelin can perform a top-down attack?

[thelmia]

I remember reading on the forum that there's a bug related to the TURMS model that makes it indestructible. Can't find it right now.

[Renaud]

It doesn't defeat any armor (at least in CMSF), when you play blue on blue you'll find out that M1s mostly survive multiple Javelin hits.

Weird...I don't have the full game yet so I haven't experienced this.

Just eyeballing the top of an Abrams without calculating the exact areas: about 1/3rd of the surface area is virtually unarmored and would result in a combat ineffective M1 if hit by a javelin in top-attack mode - maybe half of those resulting in a total vehicle & crew loss. About 1/3rd of the area would result in a mobility kill or gun damage. The remaining 1/3rd would hit very thick slabs of armor along the front 30" of hull or turret armor, or the side 8"-12" of armor around the turret sides, probably thick enough to shrug off the hit.

All this assumes a mathematically random distribution of hits. If the javelin tends to hit centermass with regularity (which I think may be the case judging from videos), this would dramatically increase the chance of a total kill since the center area of the turret top is virtually unarmored.

Anywho, best-case, 2 out of 3 javelin top attack hits will either totally KO, immobilize or gun-damage the abrams. Those are not good odds. Worst case, I would guess 5 out of 6 times a single top-attack javelin will KO the abrams.

[Law&Order]

Same happened to me, 6 javelins, good distance (top down attack), no kill. On two different t72 on the strength and faith scenario.

[satan]

Hi maybe there is a minimum safe distance on the javelin, i think with rpg its 50m, I remember reading that insurgents took this off and began engaged vehicles as close as 10m

[Rocky Balboa]

I did verify that the T72 in my example was the TURMS-T variant.

[themediocrity]

Something similar happened to me on "The Screen" mission. I tried to use javelins against T-62MVs at ranges of 400-1700m all of the tanks were completely exposed and some were stationary but almost all of the missiles missed (usually by large margins) and the ones that did hit did nothing. In multiple tries of the scenario I got one kill in maybe 20 attempts and that was only after multiple direct hits.

[Battlefront.com]

A couple of things...

First, we did find a fixed a bug that had to do with relative heights and ATGMs. That could explain some of the things above.

However, the majority of the problems seen above have to do with the range. The Javelin must have enough room to do a top attack. 100m is way under that, so it will go into direct attack mode. The missile is simply not powerful enough to burn through the front armor of most of the beefy Soviet tanks. It's designed to get through the thin top armor (and any ERA it finds on it) and have enough ooomph to totally destroy the tank.

I've got a friend who was involved with the Javelin program and I'm hoping to talk with him next week to try and confirm some data for minimum top attack ranges. These sorts of things aren't really publicized so I'll probably have to do one of those "hot and cold" question and answers. Like "is 500m about right?" "Cold", "Less?" "Warm"

Steve

[themediocrity]

I don't think that minimum range was really a problem since I was often engaging targets over a kilometer away and still was unable to get a kill. I have the 1.02 patch so if the height problem is fixed I shouldn't be suffering from it. I was also experiencing a lot of inaccuracy. The missile almost always missed, overshooting by maybe 50-100m.

[SlapHappy]

I can't help but feel this is a bug.

I just made a test mission with a lone T-72. I positioned a bradley behind a building and then ordered the infantry squad with the Javelin to climb to the roof of the building to spot and destroy the tank. Range is right at 300m. I have run the mission about eight times and have gotten hits about 80% of the time, top down. The T-72 was NEVER destroyed. Twice it was immobilized, that's it. So that's sixteen javelins and two immobilizations. This is the weapon that can destroy any known tank? I don't think so.

[Battlefront.com]

themediocrity,

The height differential was fixed in v1.03, so you'll get a chance to see if that fixes the problem or not. Our own internal testing produced similar results as yours in v1.02 and not in v1.03.

SlapHappy,

Which model of T-72? It is possible that there is something wrong with the matchup against that specific tank. We did find something like that early in testing (T-54B IIRC) where there was a data error for the top deck armor rating.

Steve