Hand to Hand combat?

[Waycool]

How will Shock Force handle/resolve hand to hand combat?

While watching The History Channel's Shootout series my mind began to wonder how SF will represent this aspect of close in fighting. The episode I was watching highlighted a few nasty engagements of Marines vs. insurgents in Iraq where the Marines used their trusty Kabar to deadly effect.

[Gpig]

Ooooh, excellent question.

(how's that for furthering the discussion?)

Gpig

[Salkin]

Originally posted by Gpig:

Ooooh, excellent question.

(how's that for furthering the discussion?)

Gpig

That just look like another *bump* to me .

//Salkin

[aka_tom_w]

Did I just hear the Great "sucking sound" Steve was refering to sometime ago in reference to the ever growing concern of "feature creep" ??

-tom w

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Waycool:

How will Shock Force handle/resolve hand to hand combat?

While watching The History Channel's Shootout series my mind began to wonder how SF will represent this aspect of close in fighting. The episode I was watching highlighted a few nasty engagements of Marines vs. insurgents in Iraq where the Marines used their trusty Kabar to deadly effect.

Do you have a more reliable source than "the history channel"? If the Marines were truly using their K-Bars, somebody ****ed things up royally...

[flamingknives]

It saves on ammunition when dispatching the wounded?

[Bigduke6]

It increases sales of K-Bar knives to U.S. civilians!

[Waycool]

In the Shootout episode that mentioned hand to hand combat, the Marine (I think it was a Marine) was involved in clearing a Hotel in darkness and as he was going down a stairway an Insurgent was heading up. A melee unfolded and the Marine used his knife which they stated was a K-Bar. The description was fairly graphic in the confrontation the Marine stabbed the insurgent in the left temple which left the the Marine quite in a state of shock other fireteams took over the sweep.

[ December 15, 2005, 09:24 AM: Message edited by: Waycool ]

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Waycool:

In the Shootout episode that mentioned hand to hand combat, the Marine (I think it was a Marine) was involved in clearing a Hotel in darkness and as he was going down a stairway an Insurgent was heading up. A melee unfolded and the Marine used his knife which they stated was a K-Bar. The description was fairly graphic in the confrontation the Marine stabbed the insurgent in the left temple which left the the Marine quite in a state of shock other fireteams took over the sweep.

That's one incident. You originally stated

The episode I was watching highlighted a few nasty engagements of Marines vs. insurgents in Iraq where the Marines used their trusty Kabar to deadly effect.

Implying several such incidents.

[Waycool]

Another part of the same episode described a Sgt. using a knife as he hunted insurgents. The insurgents fled into reeds and he to used a knife as well in a confrontation during the reed hunt This was not tied in to the other incident. The Sgt. wasn't a one man Rambo as other forces were nearby.

Granted hand to hand is rare and I am not saying it is the norm but it still can happen especially in urban areas. It would be nice if SF had some hand to hand combat resolution if deemed appropriate.

[ December 15, 2005, 09:50 AM: Message edited by: Waycool ]

[Sergei]

Originally posted by Waycool:

Granted hand to hand is rare and I am not saying it is the norm but it still can happen especially in urban areas. It would be nice if SF had some hand to hand combat resolution if deemed appropriate.

Combat Mission has always had close combat included. Why do you think it wouldn't in the future? :confused:

[gunnersman]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Waycool:

In the Shootout episode that mentioned hand to hand combat, the Marine (I think it was a Marine) was involved in clearing a Hotel in darkness and as he was going down a stairway an Insurgent was heading up. A melee unfolded and the Marine used his knife which they stated was a K-Bar. The description was fairly graphic in the confrontation the Marine stabbed the insurgent in the left temple which left the the Marine quite in a state of shock other fireteams took over the sweep.

That's one incident. You originally stated

The episode I was watching highlighted a few nasty engagements of Marines vs. insurgents in Iraq where the Marines used their trusty Kabar to deadly effect.

Implying several such incidents. </font>

[SgtMuhammed]

I don't really see a need to do anything different than the way it is currently handled. Hand to hand is taught to soldiers but really in a very basic way. Our drill sergeant used to say the military taught you just enough to get your ass kicked. If you want formal training you learned it yourself. Elite forces get a lot more but it is still a last resort thing. Not something that demands a lot of special treatment.

[Thermopylae]

I recall the story they tell about the interceptor body armor:

A ranger was clearing a short stack room and runs into two enemies. He shoots the first one, then gets shot somewhere on his upper torso, and his body armor saves him. However, he drops his rifle due to the impact. The ranger then hip tosses the insurgent, both scramble for their weapons. The Ranger wins. And that is why you wear heavy ceramic plates in your OTV.

[MikeyD]

In CMx1 if you get two squads in extreme proximity to eachother you can hear the sounds of punches being thrown and helmets being knocked. I recall in Vietnam some units would sharpen the edges of their trenching shovels to be used as axes during hand-to-hand. What Waycool probably wants to know is will the hand-to-hand remain abstracted or will there be animations? I rather doubt poor little BFC can animate everything a G.I. might perform during a battle! If I had to guess, I'd say CMSF animation will fall exactly halfway between the old CMx1 marionett movements and anything approaching the Matrix-style virtual reality that the board is wishing for.

[gunnersman]

I would think that since it will be 3D and the units would be individually represented, there would have to be some basic animation of...say...soldiers butt-striking with their rifle at least.

Although, soldiers doing jump spinning heel kicks in slow motion would be teh bomb!

[flamingknives]

Sharpened entrenching tools go back as far as WWI at least.

[juan_gigante]

The question is, will a soldier remove his helmet and beat his foe to death with it? Because that's the classy way to kill a dude in H2H.

[offtaskagain]

Originally posted by flamingknives:

Sharpened entrenching tools go back as far as WWI at least.

IIRC All Quiet on the Western Front had the germans saying their prefrred weapons of assault were a sharpened e-tool and grenades.

[Waycool]

Exactly MikeyD that is part of the question. CM1 had visually abstracted squads and the hand to hand combat is also abstracted. SF is ramping up the detail in one to one units and speed of action that is real time.

[cassh]

Chinese and Vietnamese forces still favour night time close assault using hand-to-hand weapons, grenades and satchel-charges as their preferred method. This allows them to get in your lines without the characteristic sound of gunfire signalling trouble. The sound of a supporting mortar barrage masks any use of grenades or satchel-charges used taking out command & control elements and heavy weapons.

A quick note regarding hand-to-hand combat, bayonets and other blade type close quarter battle (CQB) weapons. It is often stated, again and again how the bayonet or combat knife are obsolete and had their day in the information-age battlefield. Yet each time we go to war it suddenly comes rushing back to the forefront of the mind why these weapons exist. They allow you to kill or disable an enemy at close quarters when other alternatives are lacking or impractical.

If all of the battle is about trying to get friendly boots on an enemy position then these weapons allow you to cover the last 12 inches!

Michael Dorosh's statement that "somebody ****ed things up royally" if close-quarter-battle (CQB) is met does not reflect the reality and randomness of combat. The reason one of the Standing Orders for an assault is to "fix bayonets" is that you never know what will happen.

If an enemy enters the room/trench/bunker/alleyway you're in, then you might be fighting for you life in a split second; and a sharp pointy thing on the end of your rifle is a good place to start in making sure you don't come second!

Close combat is messy, dirty, disgusting and entirely brutal. Yet this is why, in the British Army at least, bayonet drill and close quarter combat training takes on an almost fanatical fervour on the eve of battle.

Experience has shown in recent times that CQB weapons are still vital and necessary, and that well trained and drilled forces almost always prevail and win the close quarter battle.

Successful sportsmen often workout their plays in their head in advance of any play. They envisage themselves in a given scenario or situation and run through all the options before they even step onto the park. They practice physically what they have prepared for mentally on the training pitch day-in-day-out. This is a form of mental-Pavlovian conditioning that allows them to act without having to think what should I do when the situation occurs for real. They already know. They've done it in their head and on the training pitch so many times before.

This is this same muscle-memory/practiced response that police and military forces use in all types of training.

In a highly charged and emotional environment like combat sudden surprise and lack of response/cohesion is bad news.

If an enemy is now only a metre from you and your mental outlook is one of surprise, thinking "somebody ****ed things up royally" here then you are at a severe disadvantage. An unthinking and immediate response of controlled aggression is required, but if you brain and body have not been preconditioned, the chances are the other guy will get the drop on you.

I like the way CMBB/CMAK handle CQB. There's a slight edge of randomness to it, but somehow you always feel troop quality and grenade/satchel-charges are the deciding factors. I hope CMSF maintains the realism and slightly brutal sounding files of men fighting for their lives. It makes the game seem somehow more real and less like the trivial pastime we all love.

[MikeyD]

I recall reading a Vietnam war M48 tanker memoir. During a firefight he's sitting in the gunner's position when he suddenly feels warm liquid on the back of his neck. Turning around he sees his T.C. with one hand wrapped around the barrel end of an AK sticking down into the hatch - in his other hand was a knife he had pulled from his boot and stuck into the neck of the vietcong soldier holding the AK. Sometimes close combat can be very very close!

[M1A1TC]

Originally posted by flamingknives:

Sharpened entrenching tools go back as far as WWI at least.

The modern folding shovel is hardly classified as a weapon. By the time you pull it out, unfold it, you will be dead.

[Bigduke6]

Bayonet training is a tool used by armies to convince soldiers, mostly infantry, that it is in their personal interest to close with the enemy. It is of course a lie, the way to survive as an infantryman is to avoid every possible situation where you might be a target if you possibly can, and trying to use a your bayonet is definately one of those situations.

Certainly bayonets and knives kill people in modern wars. Rarely.

For every soldier killed by a bayonet in the last century, there have certainly been tens of thousands, and perhaps hundreds of thousands, and maybe even millions of young men from industrialized nations killed, because they were taught using your bayonet in a battle somehow adds to the chances of a infantryman surviving a battle.

Bayonets were designed to keep cavalry armed with swords away from tight formations of infantry armed with black-powder muskets.

[John Kettler]

M1A1TankCommander,

German trench raiding parties of WWI used to prefer sharpened E-tools for such work. This is hardly the same as the scenario you apparently envision. BTW, the Russians, Spetsnaz in particular, are very fond of the sharpened E-tool. I've seen pictures in which the latter throw the weapon at a target while leaping through the air. Let's say I don't want to be on the receiving end!

Regards,

John Kettler