Initial impressions: WEGo vs Realtime

[ParaBellum]

Since I got the game yesterday evening I played a couple of scenarios (about 10 hours of playing), both in WEGO and realtime mode. I started with realtime because of the newness factor but reverted back to WEGO after several rather frustrating battles. Mind you, I'm not a grizzled grog that hates RT just for the sake of it, I still play Close Combat 2 from time to time and even like games like Dawn of War, Company of Heroes or the Total War series.

But in CM:SF I stumble upon the main problem that killed ToW for me: too much happening too fast. In order to play it I have to pause the game every couple of moments just to keep track of things. Even in the tiniest scenarios (like the ATGM ambush scenario) I miss important actions in no time. With the brutal lethality of modern war units get killed or wiped out before you even notice a threat. This gets even worse on higher realism levels when your own units are not automatically spotted anymore. In order to keep in contact with what's going on you have to constantly switch from unit to unit, pausing and unpausing the game in a way that quickly becomes tedious for me.

It probably reflects the reality of battle and the confusion but for a computer game this is merely frustrating.

What are your experiences with realtime mode so far? Like it? Hate it?

[ July 28, 2007, 03:17 AM: Message edited by: ParaBellum ]

[Lt Bull]

(Nice topic. I posted this in another thread (a straight copy/paste) but it sums up my views on this subject.)

Can someone please explain to me what the attraction might be of playing a game like CMx1/CMx2 in RT is?

Think of all the things you liked about CM's traditional WEGO system. Replaying great action from multiple angles, giving individual units intelligent orders that took quite some time to consider and plan, to whatever level of detail you wanted etc.

Now imagine you now played those exact same scenarios but in RT. What do you gain and what do you lose? What would you be missing out on if you didn't? In fact, is there anything actually positive at all about playing in RT?

I can tell you that you WILL lose the intelligent control of the battle and your units you once had. You will lose the ability to execute and plan to the level of detail like you once did. You will lose the ability to intelligently control anywhere near the number of individual units that you once could in WEGO, and perhaps any interest in playing further RT as a consequence. You will lose the ability to enjoy watching and savouring great action replay many times from different angles before leaving those great moments behind and proceeding with the rest of the battle.

You will gain more time to play more scenarios because the scenarios wiil physically take less real time to complete than if they were WEGO. You will realise that all the strategy and tactics you know you want to use (and could use in WEGO) could go out the window simply because your physical relationship with the game interface isn't a level that allows you to do so. You may gain frustration from that. You will gain a limitation on the actual number of individual units you can simultaneously intelligently control in a RT environment (between 6-10?), and hence a limitation on the scale and scope (also in map size) of battles you can expect to simulate in the game.

You may however gain an illusion that the game may now be considered more "realistic" because it is now a seamless RT battle like in "real life" and you must now make and give orders on the fly, "like you are really there" as the battle unfolds without the luxury of the time you have in a WEGO system. But you will also soon gain an appreciation that this is just ridiculous reasoning when you realise that the REAL battle in the game is not one of tactics/strategy between you and your opponent at all, but mainly a physical battle betwen you and the actual game hardware/software as you madly try to get your units to do what you would of wanted them to do in WEGO. You will then gain the realisation that if you really enjoy a game of tactics and strategy independant of hardware/software limitations, playing a game like CM in RT makes it a completely different type of game than playing in WEGO.

I am sorry but CM in RT is like running through an art gallery. Yeah you can say you visited an art gallery and even consider an art enthusiast doing so but did you actually gain/appreciate anything of the effort or details that other have painstakingly put in or is it that you just like running? So why bother? You know there are better places where you can go running.

Lt Bull

[KAding]

Originally posted by Lt Bull:

I am sorry but CM in RT is like running through an art gallery. Yeah you can say you visited an art gallery and even consider an art enthusiast doing so but did you actually gain/appreciate anything of the effort or details that other have painstakingly put in or is it that you just like running? So why bother? You know there are better places where you can go running.

Lt Bull

I pause all the time. I disagree with the original author that pausing is 'tedious'. Why is it tedious? In WeGo you can essentially only pause to give orders at forced intervals. In real-time, oth, you are free to adjust your orders at any time by pausing. You can react to events immediately, while in WeGo you have to wait till the end of the replay and then have remembered all the important things that happened.

In fact, is there any advantage to WeGo, except that you can rewind the action?

[Steiner14]

Lt Bull, a great post.

I still don't have played CMSF but exactly my thoughts.

I almost exclusevely played PBEM and when i received a new video-turn, i mostly locked the view to the unit expecting the most action and viewed it from that perspective. I gues i viewed from different persepctives every turn around 3-5 times (depending on the action ofcourse), critical actions more often, i.e. to identify the oponents plan.

And i believe, that the real thrill lies in the way the tactical plan unfolds (or flops and has to be changed). Tank battles were primarily not exciting for me, because of the shooting itself, but if my tanks will win (means if the tactical approach route and formation was correct) and if they will be able to continue on their route to follow my plan.

ParaBellum's experience already sounds very familiar to me, although i have no clue about CMSF.

[Steiner14]

KAding,

you say it: the possibility to pause also seems a problem to me. The 60 second-phase IS the genious part. You can only watch how your plan works. Was it a good plan, things will go ok - was it badly planned, you can do nothing but bear the consequences of your decisions. The 60 seconds force you to plan, to estimate what the oponent will do, instead to just try things out.

[ParaBellum]

Originally posted by KAding:

I pause all the time. I disagree with the original author that pausing is 'tedious'. Why is it tedious?

I consider it tedious because RT mode literally forces me to cut down the action phases into a series of tiny action tidbits. On the highest realism level when the fighting gets tough I pause the game, select a unit, TAB-zoom in on it, unpause the game in order to give orders, pause the game again, select another unit, unpause it, give orders, etc...

With WEGO a battle consists of 60-seconds sections with the possibility to replay important scenes, in RT mode I seem to stumble through 20 three-second-clips in the same timeframe.

[Exel]

Originally posted by KAding:

In fact, is there any advantage to WeGo, except that you can rewind the action?

Yes; you can actually play it in multiplayer.

RT with pause is adequate (or even good) for single-player where you can pause as much as and when you want. That's not something you can do in multiplayer though (or it gets REALLY tedious). Instead you can have WeGo where both are forced into the same game rhytm.

I don't mind having RealTime as an option for WeGo. I do mind not having WeGo for multiplayer (TCP/IP). RealTime is good for playing solo, WeGo is good for multi. But now we have WeGo only for single player, and for multiplayer we have only RealTime. The total opposite of how it should be as far as I'm concerned.

[Potential Italian Player]

No problem for me i like realtime mode in this game. May be its me but i experimented long battle actions without caos and pausing. I like recreate the reality of battle and the confusion and i think one important factor is that we are playing a wargame with modern units.

By the way as always high level of realism and i like so much the Intro Music... thx BFC

[Lt Bull]

Originally posted by KAding:

In real-time, oth, you are free to adjust your orders at any time by pausing.

What you are describing is NOT strictly RT play and the use of the pause button when you feel like it defeats the definition of RT, as it now essentially may as well be a WEGO game where you have more time to think/give orders etc.

It is theoretically possible to MANUALLY make a RT game (with a pause function) play out EXACTLY like a WEGO game, all you do is manually pause the game after every x ammount of time (60 sec in the case of CM style WEGO) and only give orders duing these times.

Originally posted by KAding:

You can react to events immediately, while in WeGo you have to wait till the end of the replay and then have remembered all the important things that happened.

And? You don't like giving orders then helplessly sit back and watch your opponents orders defeat your own?

What you seem to be describing here as being a negative of WEGO, to me is exactly one of the POSITIVES and attraction of WEGO. In WEGO you put your "tactical/strategic balls" on the line.

There is a skill required in WEGO games that is based purely on tactics/strategy (to a degree) that is NOT a part of RT games. That skill is the ability to predictively give orders and then sit back "helplessly" and watch the effect of those orders play out on the battlefield. To me this is like putting your tactical balls on the line.

A RT player does not have to deal with this intrinsic element only possible in a WEGO game. They can change their mind whenever they feel like it, either by changing them on the fly in RT, or (if thay don't have the speed to manipulate the hardware/software in time) by pausing the game and changing orders.

If you are intrested in a tactical/strategial challenge that is independant of software/hardware limitations/controls/ability etc, WEGO wins hands down every time.

Originally posted by KAding:

In fact, is there any advantage to WeGo, except that you can rewind the action?

Which ones that I have mentioned already coudl I perhaps expalin a bit better?

[Razer]

As people have pointed out. I prefer WeGo because you get to see it all, several times, from diffirent views. Nothing is wrong with RT, it's actually more flexible. But I sorely prefer sitter there, planning and then watching what I did and what happened. Every man to his own horse I guess.

[Lt Bull]

Originally posted by Steiner14:

KAding,

you say it: the possibility to pause also seems a problem to me. The 60 second-phase IS the genious part. You can only watch how your plan works. Was it a good plan, things will go ok - was it badly planned, you can do nothing but bear the consequences of your decisions. The 60 seconds force you to plan, to estimate what the oponent will do, instead to just try things out.

You got in before me Stiener. Well pointed out though. I really think many of your traditional RTS players struggle with this concept: That a game CAN be purely about tactics and NOT about some arbitrary ability to manipulate hardware/software, where it is OK to think that a battle was won by the player who can use computer hardware the fastest/the best. Is that what wargames like CM are really about? Should a players hardware/sofware aptitude (ever) be even a factor in deciding the outcome of a game based abstratction of tactical combat like CM?

If you are interested in how well a player can use software/hardware, than RTS is the style for you. If you are instead more concerened with ensuring the game remains a test of tactical skills (and in effect also putting your money where your mouth is so to speak when it comes to making plans), then WEGO is for you.

[KAding]

Originally posted by Lt Bull:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by KAding:

In real-time, oth, you are free to adjust your orders at any time by pausing.

What you are describing is NOT strictly RT play and the use of the pause button when you feel like it defeats the definition of RT, as it now essentially may as well be a WEGO game where you have more time to think/give orders etc.

</font>

[KAding]

Originally posted by Exel:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by KAding:

In fact, is there any advantage to WeGo, except that you can rewind the action?

Yes; you can actually play it in multiplayer.

</font>

[Lio]

I like RT becouse you can pause when it gets hectic and let it run when nothing happens.

Ive not played any of the CMx1 games so dont have great experience with the WeGo system.

But have to agree with Steiner14 when he says there is more planning in WeGo. If that is a positive or a negativ is personel i think. But there can be no doubt that if you gave crappy orders then WeGo will punish you for it big time.

Against the computer i still prefer RT. But i can imagin how awesome WeGo is in PBEM.

[Exel]

Originally posted by KAding:

I am also skeptical about RT in multi player mode. But then again, close combat was an excellent MP game. CC multiplayer was very intense.

Close Combat, being a WW2 game, was a LOT slower paced than CMSF set in the modern battlefield. When the tide of battle in CC or CMx1 can change in the space of a minute or less, in CMSF the battle can be over in seconds. What's more the units were a lot more autonomous in CC, requiring much less micromanagement (you told them where to go, not how to get there). Also, in CC you didn't have to struggle with the camera...

RT is doable in the modern setting as well, no doubt, but it means effective control of fewer units in the same space of time.

[Lt Bull]

KAding

I fully appreciate the concept and advantages of even unlimuted amounts of "pausing" during a RT battle (as opposed to straight RT with no pausing).

However, I guess much of my outlook on this topic stems from a multiplayer perspective primarily, and from practical expereice playing RT games online. RT with pausing has it's own practical issues when playing multiplayer. If you go by most multiplayer RTS games that have a pause function that will then let you give orders (eg Total War series), you will find that virtually NOBODY uses (or would even put up with) one player "pausing" the game whenever they feel like it. It would be considered both annoying to other players and defeat the abilities of some players whose game play play revolves around being bettr/faster computer software/hardware manipulations than you (as I have already pointed out, if this is what interests you your opponent, play RT).

Playing single player you can pause all you like without the fear of upsetting anyone elses enjoyment of the game.

I still see RT with pausing to be like playing WEGO (especially when playing against the CPU oppnent) but with the ability to "cheat" and pause the action whenever you want so you modifiy your orders. In that sense, playing RT with pausing is effectually much less of a challenge versus a CPU opponent. If played RT in multiplayer, it just becomes a totally different gaming challenge than WEGO.

Originally posted by KAding:

But so does RT..... You can make your own rules on how often to pause.

As a matter fo fact, what you are implying there would be a FANTASTIC aditional/optional parameter or game element to incorporate into a game like CM. I see this intervak as being an abstraction of the quality of the CnC of a unit or force.

I can imagine an asymetric or even a variable WEGO pause game system where the WEGO pause interval between two players is NOT neccessarily the same or even constant. It could be a global game balance/handicap setting where one player gets a shorter WEGO pause interval than their opponent, and/or some other game element (possibly related to CnC) determines the next game interval, even possibly being different for different units (eg. infantry not in CnC get a 2min interval, those that are get 1min). Just a concept worth mentioning (and exploring) that has not been seen in any other game I know of. I certainly would like to play around with this idea.

Originally posted by KAding:

The 60 sec intervals in CMX1 were completely artificial.

Absolutely. The 60 sec interval IS completely artificial, but so is the abstraction we call a computer wargame. As an abstraction, yes this 60sec interval could in theory be any number greater than zero. I have already mentioned the possibilities of having a game like CM with dynamic/varaiable intervals. For what it is worth however, the 60sec interval in all CM releases seems to be a very comfortable and appropriate kind of interval for the kind of battles they simulate.

Originally posted by KAding:

It didn't make any sense that 10 seconds in the replay you spotted a King Tiger and basically needed a new plan but were unable to issue the orders until 50 seconds later.

This is all based on how good a job you think BTS have done coding the TacAI (which is a brilliant bit of work in my books), and on how confident you are in letting go of the reigns, trusting your plans and the TacAI to get you through the next 60secs.

Originally posted by KAding:

My main objection to your initial post was the fact that you completely ignored the pause functionality in the game...

I did so becasue of the issues I have mentioned that they impose on multiplayer. You might already tell that I am multiplayer centric in my outlook.

Originally posted by KAding:

You literally seemed to believe you could not have "intellectual control" over a battle in RT mode or could only control 6-10 units at the same time. None of that is true in single player RT. It would only be true if you'd insist on not pausing.

Yes, and my comments were related to RT being defined as no pausing (which is generally the practical reality of MOST RT(S) style games played multiplayer).

[ July 28, 2007, 05:59 AM: Message edited by: Lt Bull ]

[scottie]

i prefer Wego.

[Lt Bull]

Just want to add another thing to the merits of (albeit the potential merits of) a WEGO system that seems to be missing in CMSF but present in CMx1 but only in TCP/IP play: a timer on the actual orders phase interval.

Having a limited amount of time to give orders during the orders phase of a WEGO system in both SP and MP, DOES add somewhat to the "adrenaline rush" or the "you haven't got all day to think" rush that you might get when playing RT, which kind of simulates the "stress of thinking quickly" in the heat of a battle, something that RT players may claim RT gives them (and rightly so).

I think putting an optional limit on the amount of time players have to give orders during a WEGO battle would be a FANTASTIC additional game parameter which may provide a more manageable challenege to traditional WEGO players wanting a bit more of a challenege.

It would be great if BTS implemented this as a parameter in CMSF. They did have it ONLY as an option in CMx1 when playing TCP/IP, and I think they missed an opportunity by not developing that idea more. I see no reason why you would NOT want to have it as an option in any CM TCP/IP or single player battle as it certainly is an easy way to make the game more challeneging and even perhaps more exciting/tense for players.

[wolf66]

I also strongly favour WEGO, most of the reasons were already given by Lt Bull, but there is also a different level of immersion involved for me, because RT feels more like the player is acting like some multi schizophrenic demon possessing various soldiers at various times to give them their individual orders, whereas WEGO feels to me more like a form of genuine "commanding", giving out orders one by one and then having to watch how they fitted the given situation. There were (are) countless moments of hoping that some kind of situation will not develop after giving that crucial and much pondered on move order (I hope there is not an ATG in that woods ...NAHH I take the risk )and naturally your worst fears come true - these are the moments you don't feel in the same intensity in RT, because pausing the game breaks the chain of events and the "helplessness" is not that overwhelming. I'd really miss that. And playing PBEM against Lt Bull I know what I'm talking 'bout

[Cheeba]

I think wolf66 hit the nail on the head there. One thing I always loved about the CM series, and the WeGo system in particular, is that feeling of a chain of command, where troops are given their general orders and then left to the AI to adapt on-the-fly to unexpected situations. For me it just strikes the perfect balance between control and chaos and, realistic or not, it really 'feels' like you'd imagine commanding such a situation would.

That's the reason I stuck with CM in the first place, there's countless ww2 rts games, but only one WeGo one. And my opinion hasn't changed with the change of timeframe.

[Redwolf]

Pausible real-time with VCR controls for playback etc. I would consider.

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Lt Bull:

What you are describing is NOT strictly RT play and the use of the pause button when you feel like it defeats the definition of RT,

To continue your art gallery analogy - I don't know art, but I know what I like?

Don't get hung up on definitions. If playing in RTS and using the pause button is how you like to play, who cares what you call it?

[Hub]

The CM WEGO system is just realtime with "enforced" pauses, so it's all good...

[Janster]

Yeah, same here, when you give those orders in CM you have to hope they will be valid for the next 60 seconds.

Asking us to react on split second decicions for 50-100 men and tanks is just too much.

I just makes me want that 'lasso' function Company of Heroes have, and just order all units to -go there and attack all on the way-

But since I don't have it, and orders are cumbersome to give...RT just was a silly silly decicion for MP.

Really guys, why do you change a winning plan?

Janster

Hub, no WEGA is NOT RTS with enforced pauses...

It actually forces you to plan ahead...while RT forces you to plan on the fly.

There is a BIG BIG diffrence.

[Exel]

Originally posted by Hub:

The CM WEGO system is just realtime with "enforced" pauses, so it's all good...

Which makes is all the more painful to not not have it in multiplayer. Like you said, it's just forcing a pause on the realtime game, so there should be very little reason not to have it as an option.