**Weapons and Warfare** Expansion Pack announced!!!

[hellraiser]

"New unit types including Commandos, Anti-Air, Artillery, Anti-tank, Tactical Bombers, Strategic Bombers and Destroyers"

I can only hope these units are meant for tactical level scenarios not the grand campaigns.

[Colin I]

Tend to agree with Hellraiser. Artillery simply has no place in SC2, its too short range and whilst important is better factored into other units. Antitank is already simulated with the technology and armour upgrades. Comandoes are below the resolution of the game (a corps level amphibious assault is a hell of a lot more than a comando raid). Tactical bombers should be part of both air fleets and bombers.

I'm possibly being inconsistent but destroyers, hmm, maybe, on the grounds of adding some needed texture to the naval game.

There could be a case for customised graphics. For example if an infantry unit's antitank technology is above a certain level add a picture of an antitank gun to the graphic. I'd like to see that with mobility - infantry with mobility technology show a half track as part of the graphic.

Have to say this is minor criticism, I'm enthusiatic about the road/rail nets because this adds realism AND playability/strategic options. Minor unit upgrades welcome too.

[arado234]

I think other artillery pieces have a place in this game especially for russia.The rockets we have now only had a max range of about 9kms(very inaccurate).There were many of the larger calibre artillery pieces that could shoot almost as far.When the russians launched their attack on berlin they opened up with over 35,000 artillery pieces.Hellraiser and colin I are right in the fact that they shouldnt be able to shoot say from sicily to malta.1 hex max.

[Colin I]

Artillery definately important in numbers and impact but isn't it factored into the normal combat strength of Armies and so on? Even at 9 km we are talking about attacking an adjacent tile (also true of Naval guns). If you feel its important enough to be considered separately then I'd suggest an artillery technology with which you upgrade suitable units. This could reduce certain terrain penalties (fortifications, cities) when attacking, for example. Then a Russian artillery army would be IW1 AT2 Art3.

[arado234]

Actually from what ive read about it tech.should only help with accuracy and killing power not range.The improvements made to ww2 artillery was more to do with load speed of the guns and the crews ability to drop their shells on target.This all came through experience.Plus latter on the allies started to use spotter aircraft to assist.The higher the tech the more damage caused.

[Joost]

can you play only as a single nation? (example: i am the uk and a friend/ai of mine is the usa?)

i'd love to see the first screenshots!!!

[Edwin P.]

I would like to be able to play as Russia and have the AI control the Western Allies.

[Liam]

Hmmm, I'd love for all of us to play at once? 5 player matches, then every extra unit would count, as Italy & the USA will be very boring without more Junk

As far as the use of Artillery in WW2, abstractly an attached Artillery piece could be seen as a Mobile Unit, that moves into Combat and did in WW2, especially by the Germans... then withdrawls, Katuyshas were on the back of Trucks? They can also drive in and out... how many miles per abstract turn? More than 9 KM, probably any amount of miles, more with tech as the more mobile the artillery as time went on and tactics advanced!

As far as putting them behind the Lines, great, they would've been as would HQs, airfleets of all kinds, etc... They'd move in when the fighting was on and move back out when the fighting was done with, but I do not see the simulation of 3 movements with 1 piece? An attachment to Land Units would suffice that acts before the land army attacks and carries on the back of it? Be Neat an idea but dunno if it'll be adopted

ALSO!!! MORE IMPORTANTLY, not EVERY unit sits within range of Naval Guns, WHICH cannot transport on land or move even with 5 guys pushing it around on land! in 1 week that Naval gun will never come in range of certian land elements and SHOULD NEVER solely kill a land unit. EVER! In history did 1 land Division ever get destroyed on land by a Naval unit of any kind including the entire US Navy? NO!

Also the same for air, Air power never destroyed an entire Land unit and it should be scripted out that it can ever do this. Down to Strength 1 but even ABSTRACTLY WW2 firepower would never achieve such glory not even on a Strategic Level...

More important than Commandos, AntiTank, AntiAir, BTW: THE Germans had SUPERB AntiAir units, they were elite. Cost the US Bombers a lot, Allies figured after 1 raid losing 8 bombers 2 to collision 6 to AntiAir, after just a handful of missions Nadda Bombers. Is that abstract?

Plus Corpses are pretty much Garrison, Commandos and everything else in SC2... There is no moderate unit, so we place 10-15 Axis minors in the West, Ahistorically instead of Axis Major Mini Units in the West, Historical The Axis Minors belong on the flanks at Stalingrad were they die

[ May 21, 2007, 04:58 PM: Message edited by: Liam ]

[jon_j_rambo]

Would be interesting if you could change movement/combat where you do not find out results until everything is finalized.

[arado234]

Liam your right about kraut and russian artty.Alot of the mobile units did move in fire and either stay put and provide more fire or move foward just behind the troops incase they were needed.They rarely ever went ahead of the troops.So when i say max range 9km it means from the troops they are supporting ie.russia launches an attack they call in artty support it would only be against the troops facing attack within range not troops sitting back20 50 miles away.Right now if you get your rockets to plus 5 you can shootover 100 miles.Nochance.As far as naval fire is concerned your right again it wasnt able to be accurate enough to wipeout an entire army but what it lacked in concentrated fire(couldnt fire fast enough)in more than made up for devestaing morale.I have spoken to german vets who fought on the russian front andface huge russian artty barrages and when they came to normandy(caen)they saw 60ton tigers get flipped over like toys.THAT had a HUGE effect on morale.I dont know how you would simulate that.I think the simplest way to solve this is leave it the way it is(we all have the same atvantage)or make so the artty can only shoot a max of two hexes.This way it could only really be used the way it was intented(support of the attacking troops).As it is now plus 5 rockets can shoot about 100 miles.No chance.As far as the rest go(tac.bombers etc.)just make them upgrades for the units in question.Eg tac.bombers get attached to air fleets to improve their ground attack ability.You are also right about the 5 of us doing battle.It would be blast.Remember it wouldnt matter if you or i fired the rocket or an expert the projectile would still only travel as far as it can go.Tech.advances for artillery should only effect accuracy and killing power.

[Liam]

Arado,

Definitely, there was caps on the distance on non-tactical Rockets. Even V-1s and V-2 Rockets were highly inaccurate at range. They were Infantry Support weapons... Though they were very deadly as you mention when used right! However for limitations on distance, I have an instance that contradicts their mere support role, as infantry themselves along with tanks are all in support of one another, not alone!

I recall watching a show with Rommel where he often baited Tanks, frontline Battle Tanks to come at him... Then he'd deploy his 88s to destroy them. In this regard the Tanks would be way out in front, infantry in the rear as they're slower.....the 88s would also be out in front... and then dead tanks... On a Half track with infantry support even Artillery entrenched itself could be a weapon vs certian targets. Tactical Units, yes but nevertheless in the field they get around even on horses or pushes by manpower.

Rockets, artillery, Naval Guns, AntiAir, all these units generally will be behind lines but not always, depending where... I don't myself believe that Level5 rockets should be delivering payloads 100 miles away either with much accuracy either. More of a Morale Effect or a terror weapon...

Tactical DiveBombers were widely used in WW2. They may have decided the war. I paraphraze Stalin himself, "As important as Bread or Air to the Soviet Union," When bringing factory production figures of the IL2. As Destroyers the developers might find a place for these, as filler weapons... Commandos would have a place too. As as well as Coastal Batteries! There is artillery already in SC2, in the tactical scenarios and divebombers, the sprites anyways

[ev]

Originally posted by Moon:

- Expanded Combat Target Data editing including new attributes such as Combat Suppression and Demoralization percentages

This has potential. WWII bombers and artillery was very good at pinning down and suppressing enemy fire, thus allowing infantry and armor to attack. Bombers and Artillery were not enough to destroy an enemy corps. Their true value lay in their suppression of the enemy.

If I understand this new feature correctly we could edit bombers and rockets/artillery so they would have increased suppression but decreased damage capability. ...so it would be impossible to destroy an enemy unit solely by bombardment, and still allow for heavy suppression which would greatly enhanced a direct infantry or armored attack.

...that seems the right way to go.

[SeaMonkey]

Is it possible that these new units could be abstracted attachable assets for the G-strategic scale?

Imagine in the build queue that you are able to attach these elements to a chosen unit type to enhance the target data described above by ev.

Maybe you could add these to a controlling HQ unit so that in-range units acquire the attributes.

Perhaps during gameplay these parameters can be attached or detached to qualifying units, resources, cities, fortifications, etc.

Obviously with the flexibility of the SC engine these units could be separate entities on the operational scale.

Now with roads and railways available, could we see a possible expansion of the editor into the tactical arena?

The way I see it, there are many possibilities, abtracted or specifically applied.

Try to think outside the box, we know we can count on HC and the betas to.

[ChrisND]

Don't forget SC 2 has mini-campaigns and smaller-scale stuff too, those units could be mighty useful.

[Hyazinth von Strachwitz]

Will there be a german localization?

[Hubert Cater]

Not sure about the German localization just yet as the regular German publisher of Strategic Command folded last year. If there are any updates we will of course let everyone know.

[Guest Mike]

Hmmm....better late than never - it might make SC2 worth a revisit......

[Night]

Should have stacking and 5 player mode

[Hyazinth von Strachwitz]

@ Hubert: how about trying another one? The first one was really B/S.. try CDV, they do a lot of Wargames and I think some of the german localizations for the Combat Mission Games.. they are huge and professional.

[Hubert Cater]

Problem is it is getting harder and harder to put this type of game in retail... often retail publishers are not interested or the offers do not make any financial sense. Reasons for this vary but publishing strategy PC games in general is a lot tougher these days relative to 3-D shooters or Console titles etc., and perhaps this was one of the reasons Walkon folded.

Walkon was a good fit as it was actually interested in SC2 but either way we'll see what we can do for this and future titles.

[Hyazinth von Strachwitz]

Okay, thanks for your efforts.

Will a german basic version run with an english expansion pack? Basically I don`t have a problem with english (thks to people like Mr. Rambo I speaken der Englisch goot), but I have the german basic version.. and if I would need to buy the english basic version to get the expansion pack running, I would really need to think about buying it.

Anyway: thank you very much for all the hours you work on that project.. hopefully the reward for you personally is acceptable.

[hellraiser]

Sad but true

This kind of games are part of a 'niche' market for quite some time now. Big shot publishers are not very fond of 'niche' games - eye candy stuff, shooting aliens and whatnot, supported by a nice marketing effort have the potential to earn more cash and faster. Sad but true ... games nowadays have this tendency of penalilzing ppl who can actually think ... a solid wrist is better than a well endowed brain

[Rocko1]

Hubert, I have found that Matrix Games is opening up and carrying other developers games as they have become the 800lb Gorilla in strategy games. Perhaps your fine work would be helped with some of their resources. They seem to get games into the EB Games / Gamestops from time to time.

[Hubert Cater]

Originally posted by Hyazinth von Strachwitz:

Okay, thanks for your efforts.

Will a german basic version run with an english expansion pack? Basically I don`t have a problem with english (thks to people like Mr. Rambo I speaken der Englisch goot), but I have the german basic version.. and if I would need to buy the english basic version to get the expansion pack running, I would really need to think about buying it.

Anyway: thank you very much for all the hours you work on that project.. hopefully the reward for you personally is acceptable.

Not sure just yet as we are just working on the English release for now but if it is possible we will certainly do so

[Liam]

1 question I think we're all wondering, are the extra units and modifications going to be available beyond the Tactical Scenarios??? Or will they be hardwired like a Strategic Command 2 Tactical Assualt release?