Rules, questions and comments

[Myrmidon]

Hi !

I have just started player SC2 WAW for the first time and am havig a blast learning the game.

Thank you Hubert for such a wonderful experience.

A few questions:

1. It seems strange to me that germany cannot give Italy BRPs er..I mean MPPs. Playing Italy basically means doing nothing very exciting at least at first it seems.

2. I wanted to attack Greece with Italy before Italy joins Axis. Apparently this is not possible correct ?

A suggestion:

I moved an Italian cruiser towards Egypt before it went to war and it was surrounded by 3 British BBs and 1 cruiser. I did not move for 3 turns and they just floated next to me for 3 turns as well. This allowed me to know the exact location of British ships on the onset of war and thus gain a slight unfair advantage it seems. Is there a simple way to tell the script "if ennemy unit not at war with me, do something else instead of staying glued to said ship "?

There really is an amazingly deep level of customisation available in this game. I love to choose whether to upgrade some air units in for example naval combat or rather anti tank. It really adds flavour.

The action point system is really good as well.

Liked the weather too.

My only complaint so far is the choice of bland grey slabs for the interface buttons, but this is really a minor issue.

Great game !

(Hopefully one day soon I'll try a multiplayer !)

[arado234]

Myrmidon sounds to me as if you have played a game ot two of third reich,as have i.Welcome to the group.

[Konigs]

You have no idea how much time you are about to spend playing this game, good luck and try HvsH PBEM, you will be completely hooked. I loose more than I win, but rarely play the AI anymore.

[Myrmidon]

Yes (cough cough), I did play Third Reich many years ago.

This game is just playable versus detailed enough to make it managible time wise and enjoyment wise.

Loving every minute of it.

So why is it that Italy can't attack a neutral before entering Axis ? Seems a bit strange to leave this out.

I notice that the AI does the same thing every game as axis turn 1, and as Allies defending France (UK sends same unit to same hex every game).

Is it possible with this game that people will invent AI scripts personalities for the game ? Imagine you load up and pick "random" AI personality. You don't know if you are playing against agressive "Bob" who goes for SeaLion or careful "Jim" who spends a lot of points on diplomacy and an African strategy.

Then again, one day soon I'll get into multiplayer. I just want to make sure I understand all the gme mecanics first...seeing how diferent units work, understnading strenghs and weaknesses of each nation...

Great game !

[vveedd]

Third Reich is still the best game I have ever played. There is no game even close to it but SC WAW looks very good also. I have played Demo, don’t have full release yet but with all new improvements, rules and units it is great step forward. Of course, I will say again my opinion which lots of guys here don’t want to hear: SC2 should has been like SC2 WAW in first place. Only now, with expansion pack, SC2 is true sequel of SC1.

One question: with tanks ability to attack twice it looks like game will be much faster. Did you consider changing turn length in full release of the game?

[pzgndr]

Of course, I will say again my opinion which lots of guys here don’t want to hear: SC2 should has been like SC2 WAW in first place.

It's not that nobody wants to hear that or that anyone disagrees with what you're saying, but the brutal reality is that Hubert is a one-man programmer/developer and only has so much time. And at some point in the development cycle he has to release a new game to make money. Else, he hangs up his keyboard and goes looking for a "real job" with benefits. We need to support our independent wargame developers.

1. It seems strange to me that germany cannot give Italy BRPs er..I mean MPPs. Playing Italy basically means doing nothing very exciting at least at first it seems.

2. I wanted to attack Greece with Italy before Italy joins Axis. Apparently this is not possible correct ?

For some future update, it would be nice to have an overland convoy script option to allow MPP transfers between Italy and Germany. It would also be nice to allow neutral majors an option to at least DOW minors. Italy attacking Greece and Russia attacking Turkey are always interesting options.

One question: with tanks ability to attack twice it looks like game will be much faster. Did you consider changing turn length in full release of the game?

One of Hubert's reasons for introducing the double-strike was to put some more blitz back into blitzkreig. A common complaint about SC2 was that tanks lost some of their effectiveness. Tanks have resumed their rightful role now and no change to turn length was considered. Players should find that double-strike also means double-losses, and a double-strike counter-attack by enemy tanks against overextended breakthroughs can quickly destroy armor spearheads. So be cautious with the new feature.

Yes (cough cough), I did play Third Reich many years ago.

Check out (cough, cough) my Advanced Third Reich mod.

[Retributar]

Just a Comment! :

Whenever Hubert moves onto for example the "WaW Expansion" , from just marketing SC2 only, then is there still a detriment to having SC2 marketed on the Store Shelve's?.

If current sales for SC2 have maxed out,...and also if at this point, the sales volume isn't a great concern anymore, then whynot, perhap's...permit SC2 to be made available for 'Public Sale' in 'Game-Stores?'.

[Hubert Cater]

Game stores unfortunately do not want games like SC2 anymore... sad but true

[Timskorn]

Yes, whatever people think of SC2...if you're a wargamer, supporting these kinds of developers is in your best interest to continue seeing more of them!

Steam seems like a good "non" store service for indy developers, helping games like Defcon and Darwinia reach a larger audience.

[jon_j_rambo]

Yep, can't get squat at stores except FPS garbage & a bag of fries.

When the trumpet sounds, Lord please get me off this planet.

-Legend

[Hubert Cater]

vveed, essentially what Pzgndr mentions is the sad truth... only so much time and funds to go around for games such as these in order to maintain development and a viable business model.

Hubert

[jon_j_rambo]

When people are saying 3R, do they mean the board game? It was the goods back in the 80's, but come on now...

[Baron]

Rambo,

It came out in 77 originally I believe and it one of the best games I've ever played. A true classic in every sense of the word. I personally liked WW2 Operational better but WW2 strategic is was the bomb.

I think I got addicticted to SC1 and following because it is the only thing close I've come across in all these years. Easy to learn and hard to master - great replay ability. If there were any board gamers around I'd still be playing it and I'm always on the edge of getting Avalanche Presses version of the game.

I've always wanted to own a military history store that sold books and games(pc also) but I live in the sticks and it would have to be an online deal from here. If you lived in a big metro area area a retail location might fly but you'd have to have a place for board gamers to play also.

Back to your initial reaction - yes it was that good

[The K Man]

Baron, How would you compare the axis & allies board games to 3R (if you've played them.) Just curious. Have never played 3R, but have played the A & A, A&A Europe, and A&A Pacific. Have liked all 3 games.

[Baron]

Axis and Allies to Advanced Third Reich is like comparing Risk to Chess. I loved the Axis and Allies games myself but there was way to much luck involved.

I'd say the Axis and Allies is more of a beer and pretzel game. Advanced Third Reich is much more like Chess and how the "masters" approach this game. You had to be thinking turns ahead to be successful and it was much more complicated than Axis and Allies. Third Reich had a complexity rating of 10 while Axis and Allies I'd rate more of a 2 or maybe 3.

Back then a 10 rating didn't daunt me now a days I much prefer games like SC2 as opposed to Hearts of Iron which I thought was way to complicated - I hate games that require several tutorials just to learn how to play them. That was one of the biggest attrations to SC series - you install the game and in 5 minutes you can be playing. I'd love to see something like SC2 in the American Civil War genre - which takes up the rest of my gaming time.

[The K Man]

Thanks for the comparison Baron. Maybe next time I see a Third Reich boardgame, I'll have to give more of a look...(I do have to agree on the luck factor for A&A.) Sometimes the dice rolls were just ridiculous both ways (good and bad.) I can remember rolling 4 dice (Anti air) and getting 4 one's. (knocking out all 4 planes.) Boy that really pisses the other player off.

But sometimes I find that same "luck" factor in SC2 with the Techs. When you go 2 years without a hit & the other player's at 4-5 tech, not good...

[vveedd]

Originally posted by Hubert Cater:

vveed, essentially what Pzgndr mentions is the sad truth... only so much time and funds to go around for games such as these in order to maintain development and a viable business model.

Hubert

Unfortunately I know situation Hubert. My opinion is more like light remark. Just saying that sometimes to be one man programmer/developer could be advantage – no bosses, no deadline etc. If, this is the case and games programming is not job for a living, programmer have all the time in the world for it. I was willing to wait six months or one, two years more for SC2 release with features from expansion pack included. From financial point of view this is different story; game release and then expansion pack release is much better then option mentioned before.

Anyway, you did excellent job with expansion pack. I have downloaded it yesterday. Thanks for giving us new fun times by playing your game.

Originally posted by pzgndr:

Check out (cough, cough) my Advanced Third Reich mod.

I have played your A3R mod before expansion. Map is excellent (was hoping that the same map will be in WaW expansion pack), gameplay was good but, as I remember, air units was too strong. In real A3R game air units are used in most cases for support ground units. In your mod I’ve managed to destroy enemy units only with air units. Now, with expansion pack, when fighters strength are reduced it could work great. Also, just for eye candy, it will be better that for navy fleet you use destroyer icon instead of battleship with current battle characteristic as you have for battleship units, of course. In A3R game navy fleet unit included more different kind of navy ships and vessels. Sorry if you did that already in meanwhile.

Notice for everyone who is interesting for 3R game. There is old computer version which you can download for free. It is not Advanced Third Reich, it is Third Reich game. It is a big difference.

[ October 30, 2007, 12:00 AM: Message edited by: vveedd ]

[pzgndr]

It came out in 77 originally I believe

1974. I had bought Tactics II for $5. I wanted something more, a WWII game that had it all, and Third Reich was $10. Woohoo.

I have played your A3R mod before expansion. Map is excellent (was hoping that the same map will be in WaW expansion pack), gameplay was good but, as I remember, air units was too strong. In real A3R game air units are used in most cases for support ground units. In your mod I’ve managed to destroy enemy units only with air units. Now, with expansion pack, when fighters strength are reduced it could work great. Also, just for eye candy, it will be better that for navy fleet you use destroyer icon instead of battleship with current battle characteristic as you have for battleship units, of course. In A3R game navy fleet unit included more different kind of navy ships and vessels. Sorry if you did that already in meanwhile.

vveedd, a lot of this is now updated. Air units are split between fighters and tac bombers, but not as many tac bombers since these remain potent. Fleets are about the same but ASW (destroyers) are now included.

In my playtest games, I really found myself making the same kind of grand strategy decisions I used to make playing 3R/A3R. Especially for Spain and Turkey; ie, how much combat power to commit to those ventures without compromising what's needed for Russia and North Africa, etc. The game variants and surprises that pop up keep things interesting.

[vveedd]

Very good.

As for fleets maybe you didn't understand me – just saying that you use for A3R naval fleet unit appearance, instead of SC2 battleship unit appearance, SC2 destroyer unit appearance because it has 3 ships in one icon and this look much more realistic and logical for A3R naval fleet unit which represent in game many kind of ships and vessels. Of course, if you now have ASW included as separate units icon is already occupied.

[jon_j_rambo]

Comparing 3R boardgame against SC is like comparing the Old & New Testaments. 3R was average at best even back then. Only 4 turns per year, it would take opponents an hour to move all the pieces, do combat, etc. The naval was beyond lame, dividing counter strengths, stacking messes, figuring out combat charts, name it. Just wasn't that good.

On the otherhand, Squad Leader was the game! Hundreds of scenarios, could play the small games in a couple hours. Granted, figuring out LOS was a pain. Intrepetation of rules could be an argument waiting to happen.

[arado234]

JJR I sort of agree with you on third reich(it is one of my favorite games)Its the only game ive played where if the russians dont set up right they are done in one turn.That double move can be a game winner.

As far as squad leader goes you are right on the money.I remember arguing with my friends over LOS lots of times.We actually bought a very thin edged ruler to determine those real close ones.I remember some of those games where one german H.M.G. in the right spot with a 10-3commander would just mow down loads of russian squads.

[vveedd]

Originally posted by jon_j_rambo:

Comparing 3R boardgame against SC is like comparing the Old & New Testaments. 3R was average at best even back then. Only 4 turns per year, it would take opponents an hour to move all the pieces, do combat, etc. The naval was beyond lame, dividing counter strengths, stacking messes, figuring out combat charts, name it. Just wasn't that good.

On the otherhand, Squad Leader was the game! Hundreds of scenarios, could play the small games in a couple hours. Granted, figuring out LOS was a pain. Intrepetation of rules could be an argument waiting to happen.

Every game true value is measuring by only one thing – gameplay lifetime. As you can see 3R is released in 1970 and we still talk about it and play it. This is enough to say about how 3R game is good. But if you insist JJR, your favorite game today (SC2 WaW) is, among other old games, also based on 3R game. So what you are talking about? True, there was some confusion in board game about stacking and few other things but in 1970 there was no PC. If someone today will make remake (please God or someone?) of 3R you will see for sure how this game is good. Actually, as I mentioned above, there is old computer version in MS DOS and it is quite good.

[Desert Dave]

Every game true value is measuring by only one thing – gameplay lifetime.

Then,

Going by that particular criterium,

Chess is the all time champeen!

And,

Hmmmm... which game TODAY most resembles

Chess?

SC 1, 2 and - could it be - 3! :cool:

As you can see 3R is released in 1970 and we still talk about it and play it. This is enough to say about how 3R game is good.

Not bad.

Though... the Battle of the Atlantic,

And - the Allied Strategic Bombing campaign,

Was a bit short-shrifted, nein? - vveedd?

Mostly it was a small series

Of pre-determined kleine conflicts

So to get to the REAL

Metal-to-metal

4-6 VS 4-5 deal,

The GErmans VS the Russians.

If someone today will make remake (please God or someone?) of 3R you will see for sure how this game is good.

It will probably need to be Gott, vveedd,

But... he or she seems to be

Mighty busy these days

Deciding which of his mortal minions

Is the MOST back-brain lunatic.

Actually, as I mentioned above, there is old computer version in MS DOS and it is quite good.

It sucked.

Waiting! For user input!

LOLOL!

DOS is history.

History is a lost art.

Art is taking what is COMPLEX

And making it... simple,

NOT the other way 'round.

Chess is simple for those who don't

Wish to study a LIFETIME

To learn how to play it... superbly.

So.

Now you got Strategic Command

In ALL it's various iterations,

With some more - probably?

On the drawing board.

What more?

Could you ask for?

vveedd! :cool:

[vveedd]

Hello Dave, glad you still in shape.

Originally posted by Desert Dave:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Every game true value is measuring by only one thing – gameplay lifetime.

Then,

Going by that particular criterium,

Chess is the all time champeen!

And,

Hmmmm... which game TODAY most resembles

Chess?

</font>

[Sombra]

Well there is one thing really annoying in WAW right now. Situation early 1940. England has an engineer corps in Egypt right besides Alexandria. Its invisible surprise contact...unit nearly dead..killed by english counter.. engineer disappears again under FOW... as the english fleet is nearby I cant see the engineer again... surprise contact...army half dead killed by counter... Sorry I think this is kind of stupid. Because you can hardly go around it... Eitehr engieners dont can do a surpise encounter or they should be able to see at least from land units.