Confirmed use of shotguns in combat ETO & PTO

[John Kettler]

I hadn't been to www.tankbooks.com in quite some time, and I happened to decide to look at the first of the interviews. Imagine my surprise and joy to find this marvel of military minutia. It's an eyewitness account of a bloody village fight employing two double barrel shotguns firing buckshot.

www.tankbooks.com/intviews/martin/martin2.htm

Also, wanted to let those know who didn't see Mail Call on the History Channel (U.S.) last week that a segment on the samurai sword had an interview in which the samurai sword expert showed Mail Call's host, R. Lee Ermey (the DI in "full Metal Jacket") a war relic he'd obtained from the widow of a 5th MarDiv soldier. The scabbard had many shotgun pellet hits over its length, about one every 4", and there was even one still embedded in the grip. If the pattern was like that on the scabbard, the Japanese officer must've looked like a Swiss cheese, certainly from the waist down. That sword was one of the most gripping military relics I've ever seen, for it told a story which chilled me 57 years after it occurred.

Thought some of you might be interested.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Pak40]

I remember a shotgun in The Thin Red Line, the movie. I think they were more common in the pacific, maybe used by combat engineers who delt with clearing out bunkers, holes, caves etc..

[Poobear]

Originally posted by Pak40:

I remember a shotgun in The Thin Red Line, the movie. I think they were more common in the pacific, maybe used by combat engineers who delt with clearing out bunkers, holes, caves etc..

Ah yes. But the coolest display of a shotgun by a marine in a mvie (IMHO) would have to be Corporal Hicks in Aliens. "I like to keep this for close encounters." Huu-rah!

[gunnergoz]

According to Canfield's US Infantry Weapons of WW2, thousands were fielded and used, particularly in the Pacific. Most ended up guarding prisoners, but quite a few did see action obviously.

[mike the wino2]

My brother and I were at a gun show '93-'94ish and saw an interesting shotgun. When we asked about we were informed that it was a military shotgun, Remington I think. I made some comment about it being Vietnam era and was promptly corrected by the gun-grog that it was a WW2 shotgun. After a lengthy discourse, with much nodding on my part and "oh reaally"'s and "umm-huh"'s, I got a rather complete run-down on shotguns and there place in the military. As this was a while ago I remember little save this: their use dated back to at least WW1, definitely used in WW2 and Vietnam.

Still wish I would have bought that gun. It had a proctetive, ventilated metal piece over the barrel so you would burn yourself on the hot barrel. Very cool looking. BTW, pump action.

[ August 09, 2002, 01:52 PM: Message edited by: mike the wino ]

[BeauCoupDinkyDau]

Originally posted by Poobear:

"I like to keep this for close encounters."

"Eat this!!" :cool:

[The ol one eye.]

My Grandfather was a SeeBee in the Pacific, he told me a story about defending the base he was at ( I cant recall which island) from bonzai attacks. He somehow lost his BAR and he found a double-barrel shotgun instead. A japanese soldier got too close and he " let 'im have both barrels, it was like a giant hand picked him up and swatted 'im back end over end" if I remember the words correctly. He did'nt use shotguns afterwords. I love hearing those old stories.

[Juju]

Originally posted by The ol one eye.:

defending the base he was at from bonzai attacks

You mean they were attacked by them tiny little trees?

[Determinant]

Originally posted by Juju:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by The ol one eye.:

defending the base he was at from bonzai attacks

You mean they were attacked by them tiny little trees? </font>

[Pak40]

Also, I seem to remember Kevin Dillon use a shotgun in the movie Platoon.

[Alan]

Here is a bit from the tankbooks site.

"Andy Rego: They were holding this town, and Souvenir Brown was on guard, and the Germans were coming down the street. [This is from] what I’m told, I didn’t see it or witness it. ...

Otha Martin: I saw it.

Andy Rego: And he fired both barrels, he knocked fourteen men down.

Otha Martin: I’ll tell you. Rudd’s tank was sittin’ here, and I think No. 2 tank was sitting there, and it’s a cobblestone

That is better than the movies.

[Breakthrough]

Pump type shotguns were used by US Marines since before WW I. They were standard equipment for marine detachments aboard naval vessels and were the 'force multipliers' of the days before submaching guns and automatic rifles. The US Army had no official place for them in their TO&E for combat units, but like many types of handguns like Pattons ivory handled revolvers they got around unofficiially. One of the USAAF pilots on the Doolittle raid carried one in his planes cockpit along with a hunting axe.......

[yunfat]

Originally posted by Poobear:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Pak40:

I remember a shotgun in The Thin Red Line, the movie. I think they were more common in the pacific, maybe used by combat engineers who delt with clearing out bunkers, holes, caves etc..

Ah yes. But the coolest display of a shotgun by a marine in a mvie (IMHO) would have to be Corporal Hicks in Aliens. "I like to keep this for close encounters." Huu-rah! </font>

[Guest Mike]

The "Gunnie" in "Windtalkers" has one, and there's an article in an old "War Monthly) mentioning their use in France/Germany (particualrly in forests) that notes that a standard load for a shell was 9 x .32 calibre slugs.

[Scooby33]

*Post edited by user*

I neglected to read the entire message in the first post. Duh...

Ignore me.

[ August 09, 2002, 07:42 PM: Message edited by: Scooby33 ]

[Durbish]

A veteran I used to talk to commented lovingly of the shotgun he used in korea. His qoute "anything in the bush was mine".

Poor guy apparently got his whole squad wiped out and his lower body mangled by friendly artillery...

[Mr. Johnson--]

Actually the shotgun in use by American soldiers goes all the way back to the French-Indian war(7 Years war). And have been with American troopers in every war since I think.

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Mr. Johnson--:

Actually the shotgun in use by American soldiers goes all the way back to the French-Indian war(7 Years war). And have been with American troopers in every war since I think.

Incredible! But...er...isn't it getting a bit rusty by now?

Michael

[Jarmo]

Andy Rego: And he fired both barrels, he knocked fourteen men down.

Fourteen men????

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Jarmo:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Andy Rego: And he fired both barrels, he knocked fourteen men down.

Fourteen men????</font>

[CMplayer]

Originally posted by Pak40:

I remember a shotgun in The Thin Red Line, the movie.

There's definitely one in the book. I don't have it in front of me, but one of the guys in the pillbox assault has one, which he uses as a club in the hand to hand fighting.

[Determinant]

Originally posted by Michael emrys:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Jarmo:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Andy Rego: And he fired both barrels, he knocked fourteen men down.

Fourteen men????</font>

[mike the wino2]

Determinant , I won't speak to the accuracy of the second-hand stories recanted above but I will speak of the physics of shotguns. Depending upon distance, type of load (OO Buck vs Birdshot), choke, and profiency of shooter this type of result might occur.

Also note the fact that the writer states "knocked 14 men down". There is no indication all were shot but just down. Having shot a 6" tree down with semi-auto AK-47 I would say all it takes is time and patience...and a lot of ammo.

[ August 11, 2002, 04:18 AM: Message edited by: mike the wino ]

[John Kettler]

Determinant,

I believe that if you check the story, the fight took place in a town or village, at night, close range, and unexpectedly for the Germans. Our guys were on guard duty in their tanks, heard the German hobnailed boots on the cobbles well out, were waiting, and fired down from the Sherman turrets. Now, take those same limited kill potential buckshot projectiles from before and fire them from ambush, into a closely packed platoon or larger, say, and do it from around a twelve foot elevation. Be sure to factor in secondary missiles from misses striking the cobblestones, too.

The level of damage may have been higher than normal, but I can well believe, based on seeing lots of combat footage and stills, that the Germans were quite densely arrayed (frightening to see how much troops bunch up; have seen whole squads fighting practically shoulder to shoulder) and presented an ideal shotgun target. For sheer instant firepower and shock effect, no firearm touches the combat shotgun. That is precisely why so many guys on point in Vietnam used it as the weapon of choice.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Determinant]

Ooops! Thanks John - top tip about reading the story _ahem_ before sounding off. I didn't realise that there were two of them, as the old joke goes. Well four rounds of buckshot 14 men down - still sounds too high rather than just plain impossible. But I like Mike's take too: if a couple of shotgun wielding loons appeared above me as I was clumping past in the night and started firing into my group then I would go down too - hit or not.

I hear what you say about elevation, chokes and secondaries but there just ain't no way that a shot spread at, what, 20 feet is going to be wide enough to hit more than a couple of men at a time. Even packed together the bodies of those in front will protect those behind.

I completely agree with your quote about infantry bunching up, especially in town. There are lots of quotes in books about men attacking coming forward like a crowd at a football match. Human nature I suppose..

I also agree with your reference about the shotgun having presence. In the bush war in Rhodesia some were carried by, funny old thing, ex-US Army vets serving in the Rhodesian Army. But the shotgun is not _that_ much of an area weapon, and you're limited in ammo compared to, say, an assault rifle. Thus their limited take-up.

Interestingly despite scuttlebutt to the contrary shotguns are not even mentioned in the Geneva Conventions

So there's my view: shotguns not much bang for your buck compared to the market leader a 5.56 mm assault rifle firing 3 round bursts.

And as for the story above: splendid if true. But I still don't swallow it and I think that the only weapon that could replicate it would be a pair of claymore mines: now there's a big shotgun for you!