Head For The Hills.... ROW II

[Holien]

Spoiler

DO NOT READ IF YOU WANT TO PLAY THIS GREAT SCENARIO BLIND....

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Another great game and map. Good challenges for both attacker and defender.

I think it favours the attacker as they have more artillery than you can shake a stick at.

The only way to win this as the Germans is stay hidden as long as possible and get up close and personal with what little you get...

H

[Scott B]

Glad you liked it!

Spoilers follow:

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Without giving too much away, there are going to be a few changes in the "release" version that correct some issues that were uncovered in the tournament, notably the inability for the German mounted reserve force to move around the left side of the big hill (although, admittedly, it hadn't occurred to me that someone might choose to do this). I think the briefing incorrectly lists both the number of turns and the ground conditions, which is just shoddy proofreading on my part.

Finally, I'll be adding in some of those more random elements that were removed for the purposes of tournament play; probably some CAS for the allies and perhaps some randomized entry of some reinforcements.

Scott

PS: So you think it favors the attacker, eh?

[Treeburst155]

I think it favors the Germans, but only if the defense is a good one. IOW, a skilled German player will get at least a minor victory against any Allied player, even a highly skilled one. I could be wrong though. Perhaps my attack plan was not the best.

Treeburst155 out.

[MrSpkr]

I didn't like this one much, either. I think it was weighted more towards the attacker.

SPOILER ALERT

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I found it to be heavily weighted towards the attacker, actually. I found I had insufficient infantry to adequately protect the objectives.

Additionally, the 88mm flak guns were rather unimpressive and fragile.

I did keep everyone hidden at first, but the massive numbers of allied infantry I faced just made holding darn near impossible.

In short, I pretty much didn't have much fun here - it is the only auto-surrender I have had in months.

Steve

[Treeburst155]

"fragile 88's", hehe.....wait until you read some of the AARs. I'd send them to you if I could. It sounds like you may have had more than your share of bad luck in HH. It's interesting that you and I hold opposite views on balance in this one. Very interesting indeed. I played Allies, and you played the Germans. Hmmm....

Treeburst155 out.

[Holien]

I think a good attacker can not fail to win this one....

But then again I could be wrong...

Tero wasted his arty and I base my view on use of the massive arty advantage the Allies get...

H

[Redwolf]

I played bad the whole tournament but this one was a highlight in stupidity.

I lost one tank to a 88, so far so good. But I lost the other two to Schrecks by moving them into 200m of the village. That was before the 155mm spotter arrived, so I didn't know I would get decent other fire support and pushed with the tanks.

I killed most guns and would probably get an acceptable result out of the game by redrawing from the map after getting all these points. But I couldn't resist pushing with infantry only into the village, going down in flames and having an autosurrender in the last turn. My 57mm AT gun was already at the map edge (on foot) to be evacuated but I had them walk back and they went prisoner.

[Michael Dorosh]

Heh...my game ended in a draw, with the computer quitting for the both of us. What could be a better testament to balanced scenario design?

[Scott B]

Figure I'll weigh in on the balance issue (pun intended).

Huge spoilers follow:

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This scenario was initially designed to be offered as a single player battle, where the American player had to use good combined arms tactics to defeat an AI that outnumbered and outgunned him. The version that first went out for playtesting completely lacked the mid-battle reinforcement with the engineers and 155mm spotter, while the Germans had more forces on hand. In that version, there's no doubt in my mind that the average score for the American player in this tourney would probably have been in the 20s or 30s.

It was pretty clear to me at that point that I'd probably be looking at death threats from people who played the Americans in the tourney at the time , so I added in that later game reinforcement; I still think that it probably favors the defender, however, although the scores seem to be fairly close (don't know if we can talk specifically about that yet due to FOW issues).

The battle's difficult to call:

1. While the Germans and the Americans actually have about the same number of points, some of the German points are in fortifications, while some of the American points are in artillery spotters with increased ammo loads.

2. The terrain is difficult - that probably hinders the attacker, although the attacker has a greater degree of mobility than the defender, who has to base his defense to some extent on his 88mm Flak guns that he can't move after setup.

3. The attacker has combined arms forces of pretty good average quality, while the defender has infantry heavy forces of widely varying quality reinforced with a battery of vet 88s.

4. Ammo status for the Germans varies fairly widely as well (not always a hinderance; the 88s have a huge number of HE rounds, which is for both gameplay purposes and to represent their use in the harrassment and interdiction fire missions mentioned in the briefings) - the American player is pretty uniformly well equipped with ammunition.

5. The Germans have a fanaticism rating (25%, if I remember correctly) for regular or higher troops, so the vet SS Gebirgsjagers should be pretty nasty in close quarters, and I think that may have also assisted the veteran 88s in shrugging off 81mm mortar fire.

6. Setup gives the Germans a fair degree of flexibility and depth, while also affording the ability to place scouts on the forward slope of the main hills.

7. Setup divides the American force, with about half of it arriving on an opposite flank (in the briefing, this is explained to be coordination problems with a neighboring regiment), so the American side is fairly heavily guided toward a piecemeal attack (I usually don't like to do this sort of thing, but I like how it works in this case).

Anyway, although Old Hickory was designed first, this was the first battle I ever released for Combat Mission. I'm sure that it won't be a favorite for everyone, but I hope that the experience was unique and challenging for all involved.

You people played this scenario as hard as anyone possibly could; how would you recommend that it be improved?

Scott

[kunstler]

I played German in the scenario, and thought it was quite fun. I thought it was a trap set up, let the enemy infantry in the town, defend the hills, then take down buildings in one turn with concentrated 88 fire, killing all therein in the collapse.

Managed that a couple times, always gratifying.

I think the scenario really hinges on the enemy artillery taking out the 88s. I got lucky and killed some of the enemy spotters in my game, which put the allies in a bad spot.

If I'd lost those guns, it would have been much tougher, if not an allied cake walk. They were the 'hinge of battle', as they say.

kunstler

[Ted]

I thought it even if not a little skewed toward the Germans.

One after another of those 88’s kept popping up. One or two shots and whatever they were shooting at were half strength and running away.

I moved 2 of my Sherman’s around the Allied right clearing 2 mine fields that covered the small gap in the woods there. When I came out from behind the hill I traded 1 sherm for an 88. On the left by the road I killed an 88 only to get knocked out by a shreck from a top floor at almost 200 yards (and I can’t hit a thing at 75, sheesh!).

I dropped nearly all the 81mm artillery on one 88 while firing at it with the Sherman, mg’s and 60mm’s but it just kept pummeling my troops for like 3 or 4 full minutes (seemed like days).

On the left when the late reinforcements arrived they fought their way up the hill past barbed wire only to ambushed by those crack gerbils and nearly annihilated. There were enough left though to take the left front flag at the and of the game (with a little help from the reinforcement engineers.)

I did what seemed a one for one trade with the armor and that left several guns left on top of the big hill.

I used the 155’s to clear the hill and the 105’s to thin out opposition and isolate it from reinforcements coming up the allied left side of the board. I’m glad I waited with the 105’s until those last 88’s showed themselves. I then made a mad dash into the center valley and up the hill. I just barely made it to the top in the closing minutes.

Oh a Marder jumped into the fray at one point towards the end and I had to roll my eyes “what next!” but luckily the 105 barrage immobilized it far enough away from the top of the hill that it didn’t effect the flag possession.

I was lucky to take the flag

It would have been doom and gloom if I had not received the eng. Platoon and the 155 spotter when they did. I wasn’t expecting it and was about ready to write off the game and salvage what I could.

You could hear the troops yelling all the way back to the states.

Anyway, I took all the flags but I lost so much that I think I ended on the high side of a draw or pulled out a minor victory.

In my opinion I don’t know how you could have balanced it any better.

[Treeburst155]

The MEDIAN (not the average) scores for this scenario so far, after splitting the unclaimed/contested VL points down the middle are: Allies-53, Axis 47

There are still three games going that could affect this.

Treeburst155 out.

[Treeburst155]

The Nabla scores for this scenario AT THIS POINT give us the following performance ranking among all participants:

Combined_Arms 13.80

Evan_Roberts 12.55

Holien 12.45

Ali 12.36

Hobo 12.26

MickOZ 12.04

Kunstler 12.04

Fate 10.12

Kanonier_R 9.95

Jon_L 9.95

Saport 9.58

mPisi 9.39

Scheer 7.86

Lopaka 7.86

Jim_L 7.86

Bertram 7.35

Jeb 6.81

mike8g 6.53

Ugbash 6.53

Uber_General 5.62

Ricochet 5.62

Strider 4.27

Cpl_Carrot 4.27

von_Lucke 3.90

Zipper 3.52

Tom_Norton 3.52

a1steaks 2.73

Michael_Dorosh 2.73

Mikeydz 1.88

Heavy_Drop 1.88

Vadr 0.97

JonS 0.97

RC 0.00

Cpt_T 0.00

The_Capt -0.97

Lord_Dragon -0.97

Vaders_Jester -1.88

EASY_V -1.88

Spanish_Bombs -2.73

J_Porta -2.73

Warhammer -3.52

Ozzie_Osbourne -3.52

Diceman -3.90

White4 -4.27

Wadepm -4.27

Visom -5.62

Jarmo -5.62

Soddball -6.53

Jack_Trap -6.53

Charles -6.81

John_Kettler -7.35

Torbhen -7.86

Ligur -7.86

Bimmer -7.86

J_Jelinek -9.61

Juha_A -9.86

Tabpub -10.36

Boris -10.36

THumpre -10.61

Sgt_Gold -14.11

Big_Dog -14.11

I_Man -14.61

MrSpkr -14.86

Tero -15.11

Redwolf -15.36

Pixelmaster -19.86

[Holien]

Sorry Tero....

H

[Treeburst155]

Yes, Holien, you killed Tero. I hope he is out for revenge!

Treeburst155 out.

[Holien]

Originally posted by kunstler:

I think the scenario really hinges on the enemy artillery taking out the 88s. I got lucky and killed some of the enemy spotters in my game, which put the allies in a bad spot.

If I'd lost those guns, it would have been much tougher, if not an allied cake walk. They were the 'hinge of battle', as they say.

kunstler

K has hit it on the head and if you managed to deploy the 88's well then it certainly gave the Allies a hard time.

H

[Cpl Carrot]

Can't say I enjoyed this one too much but that was due to the position I was in when taking over the battle (I'm not saying I would have done better but I would like to think so ). My force was split 50-50 and the troops on the left were going backwards in one hell of a hurry. I did have the mountain secured on the right and was able to fire into the village OK. Then the 88's opened up. Messy for a while until I managed to manouver my 81mm spotter into position where I proceedeed to KO a gun a turn except the very last one which proceeded to be a pain in the butt/side/head etc. I finally dealt to it with a spotting round from the 150mm battery . White4 launched a counter attack against the hill over looking the village (while I pressed on into the village and managed to hold him off with CO's and flamethrowers.

The only positive note I had was taking out the Marder at 100m with a zook while it was moving fast done the road.

I think the end result was a draw slightly favouring me.

Cpl Carrot

[ September 27, 2002, 06:33 PM: Message edited by: Cpl Carrot ]

[Holien]

Good job you only joined 1/2 way through...

For me anyway...

I am sure you will do well Another day?

H

[CombinedArms]

Originally posted by kunstler:

I played German in the scenario, and thought it was quite fun. I thought it was a trap set up, let the enemy infantry in the town, defend the hills, then take down buildings in one turn with concentrated 88 fire, killing all therein in the collapse.

Managed that a couple times, always gratifying.

kunstler

I took exactly the same approach and ended up with a big Axis win. I think this one is going to be awfully tough for the Allied attacker IF the defender uses all of his advantages to the max,and unless the attacker is extremely sharp.

But then, I just LOVE AT guns and getting six 88s to play with seemed to me just like Xmas! For me, the key to success is to avoid defending the town. I just had a couple of shrecks WAY back at the far end. My view is that any German soldier who started the battle in that town was a dead soldier, so I concentrated my men in the woods where they couldn't get shot at by tanks. The other key was that my opponent seriously underused his artillery. Anyway, not a single one of my 88s fired until turn 25, but I still regard them as the key to victory.

[Holien]

CA...

Interesting...

I choose to defend the Town and the Hill on the right. The hill above the town was undefended.

The 88's allowed me to support the defence in the town from a distance.

If the Allied player walked into the town with a few men he can get the flags for little damage to himself. Well that was the way I saw it...

As always it all depends on your opponent and how they play it....

H

[tabpub]

I'm waiting for Kanonier's version of this one...I had a premie ejac with the 88's and he called down the artillery shells with freakin laser beams on their heads . The crew casualties were nominal, as the shells landed directly on the guns themselves..

The "piece de Resistance" was the 155 round that hit on one side of the last hill. It landed in the rough area on the front side. I can only surmise what happened next. Apparently, the large explosion launched a boulder into the air which arced over the hill to land on the reverse slope. Unfortunately for me, the 75 ATG (which had been laboriously handpushing up the hill for the last freaking 10 min) was under the landing spot of the boulder! The crew stood around amazed looking at the LAST effective AT weapon remaining was crushed by a rock...

[Frunze]

The title of this scenario is really good advice for the attacker, I think, after playing it as defender. Go through the woods, even though the tanks, mortars and MGs won't be able to help you after a certain point. (They will help you deal with anyone who tries to fight you across the open space, though. Most of my infantry fighting was done up-close in the woods, and like Scott B says, the veteran SS did really well despite being SMG-light.) Then come up behind the 88s.

If the attackers make the mistake of going down the center, or into the village, the 88s will slaughter them. Which is what I did as defender, just as Kunstler and CombinedArms said.

I unhid my 88s a little early, though, and lost some of 'em to heavy artillery. But they did enough damage first to let me wipe out Redwolf. There wasn't much left of the village.

The first 88 I unhid took out a tank, two mortars trying to kill it, and a bunch of infantry. It survived several turns of 81mm artillery, and on its last turn took out an out-of-LOS halftrack with nearby area fire.

Even if the attacker takes the hill on his right, 88s on the rear hill could possibly bottle him up there. (I was interested to hear that Ted took a tank all the way through there. Where were the 'shrecks?) So it makes a big difference that setup compels him to split his troops, rather than make one big attack up the left. Redwolf tried to move some of his forces from his left over to his right, but an 88 put a stop to that.

Scott, I agree with your analysis, and it's a great scenario. One small suggestion: the setup zones for the German screening elements should extend all the way to the (German) left map edge...Redwolf snuck around me there. Well, that was mostly my fault, the main force setup zones do go that far IIRC.

Redwolf, I wish you'd stop saying you played awfully, it takes all the glory out of my victory...seriously, you made mistakes but none of them were truly boneheaded.

[CombinedArms]

Originally posted by Holien:

CA...

Interesting...

I choose to defend the Town and the Hill on the right. The hill above the town was undefended.

The 88's allowed me to support the defence in the town from a distance.

* * *

As always it all depends on your opponent and how they play it....

H

Maybe the key point here is that you can't try to defend everything.

I chose to concentrate in the woods on both the right and left flanks and had enough infantry to chop the attacker's infantry up as it hit my lines, a little too piecemeal. The 88s, spaced out at wide intervals along the edge of the woods, were important because, although I didn't use them till late in the game, they freed me to concentrate elsewhere with my infantry.

Now, if arty had come down heavily on my in-woods infantry concentrations, that might have been a different story.

Near the end of the game, the Allies attacked the empty village with engineers, and I blew it to pieces with my 88s, which unmasked to kill the late-appearing Shermans, then hit the buildings. Then I sent a infantry platoon running over from the woods to seize the rubble. I was fully prepared to concede those flags but figured I might as well grab them if they were available. I may just have been lucky that my plan perfectly parryed the plan chosen by my opponent. It doesn't always work that way.

[ September 27, 2002, 08:27 PM: Message edited by: CombinedArms ]

[Kanonier Reichmann]

Originally posted by tabpub:

I'm waiting for Kanonier's version of this one...I had a premie ejac with the 88's and he called down the artillery shells with freakin laser beams on their heads . The crew casualties were nominal, as the shells landed directly on the guns themselves..

The "piece de Resistance" was the 155 round that hit on one side of the last hill. It landed in the rough area on the front side. I can only surmise what happened next. Apparently, the large explosion launched a boulder into the air which arced over the hill to land on the reverse slope. Unfortunately for me, the 75 ATG (which had been laboriously handpushing up the hill for the last freaking 10 min) was under the landing spot of the boulder! The crew stood around amazed looking at the LAST effective AT weapon remaining was crushed by a rock...

I have to agree with you there tabpub. I was incredibly lucky with my 60mm mortar fire against your 88's. I counted 3 88's taken out by my puny mortars (with virtually no casualties to your crews I gather) while the other 3 88's were taken out by firstly, my 57mm AT gun!!, a Sherman I luckily halted just short of a direct line of sight to your gun and thirdly, a 155mm airburst. Although they certainly did chew up my infantry and especially my initial platoon of Engineers, I was happy with the trade-off in the end.

My plan was to basically secure the heights to the right and left of the town and once done, then hit the built up area from both flanks. I felt the main objective area was too far away to worry about and I would have settled for the minor flags only. My plan had to quickly be changed when I lost too much infantry on my left flank (to those 2 initial 88's of yours) and I decided to then settle for simply attempting to capture the objective area on the left hand heights. I was able to capture the right hand heights without too many losses except ammo was starting to run a bit low for some of my troops. When the re-inforcing Engineer platoon and 155mm Arty Spotter arrived this simply made my task easier to hit the town from not only the heights on the right but also down the middle.

Once I had secured the town I felt, bugger it! I'll have a shot at the main objective as well since there seemed to be a hell of alot of resistance on my left flank and I was definitely struggling to make much headway on that small objective flag. I loaded two almost untouched infantry squads onto my 2 remaining mobile Shermans and charged up the hill along with whatever able bodied troops I had left, on foot. Despite your remaining infantry certainly chewing up one of my two mounted squads, the other one was able to get close enough to the objective, along with a fairly exhausted Company HQ, to cause it to be classified as contested at the end. I was very lucky with that last minute charge and I'd have to agree, my artillery spotters were amazingly accurate in putting down fire onto reasonably tight areas without causing damage to my nearby troops. It was just one of those days out I think.

Regards

Jim R.

[John Kettler]

My long AAR on this grueling fight as the Germans is posted in the RoW II AAR thread.

Regards,

John Kettler