BFC - Whats the next big thing ??

[MikeyD]

My poor computer is groaning just thinking about all the bells and whistles envisioned for the new game engine. CMII may fall victim to a bad case of over-expectations... in other words it's probably going to be great but not fantasy-land great!

Making these suggestions, we've got to remember CMBB is a small outfit and it takes more than a little dedication to get everything just right. If the guys at CMBB have no interest in the Pacific theater then we won't get the Pacific theater. If they have an interest in the Spanish/American war then we may just see a 3-D recreation of the Spanish/American war!

Whatever theater they pick I'd guess it's got to have armor because that's what the CMBB game engine 'does'.

[ October 17, 2002, 01:08 PM: Message edited by: MikeyD ]

[Volstag]

When I was active on these boards about a year and a half ago, I remember that their plan (at the time) was similar to the following:

CMBO

CMBB

CM (Africa / Italy)

CM (??? - not sure about this one)

After that, IIRC, they were going to redo the engine and begin releasing them down the line again:

CM II:BO

CM II:BB

CM II: (Africa / Italy)

CM II: (???)

Personally, I don't care which direction they go, or what they do, provided it stays with WWII. Not a big fan of other engagements (especially those that are post WWII). They do have a good engine/concept and they could easily branch into other areas of military history (American Civil War or WWI would be my candidates). Modelling the "whole enchilada" would be another awesome addition.

I would like to see the current engine become more robust... better graphics, more units, etc. The more "realistic" it becomes, the better. I would LOVE to see the ability to support large multiplayer games (i.e. 6 vs 6), some sort of campaign mode (there are ways to do it w/o being cheesy/gamey IMO).

My ultimate dream, of course, would be the ability to play the entire war from beginning to end from whatever command level you wanted. Dictate the course of the war from the strategic level, and then have the ability to jump into any fights along the way. This would require reams of work/research (having historically accurate maps of all of Europe would be a tremendous chore).

I would also like the gloves to come off the QB generator. I would like the ability to jump into wildly unrealistic battles... i.e. late war Germans vs. early war Russians in a meeting engagement. Russians get 3000 pts to spend, germans get 1500 (or something like that).

My dubious $0.02

Out,

Volstag

[bbaker]

If I might humbly suggest a small mod for the engine rewrite...

The ability to play a nationality against itself, e.g. German vs. German. Yeah, I'm a bastiche for suggesting this, but I'm a gamey bastiche and CM is, after all, a game.

[pad152]

CM down and dirty, scale it down (CM PLATOON), add more detail to small arms and focus on infantry tactics with tanks as support units.

This would allow the modeling of individual GI's and ability to have realistic campaigns (EZ company).

[Scipio]

I don't care so much about the next theatre if they will only bring the engine to a new standart, this means to me both the gameplay and the graphic.

* Borg spotting is of course the most important

* A better artillery system. I would especially like to see the ability to select between explosive and fragmentation shells (which were available all thetime to all nations already since WWI, if not even earlier) for example and different firemodes: Störfeuer, Schnellfeuer (don't know the English terms) etc. More indirect fire by on map weapons. Just to name a few.

* Vehicel damage could be more detailed and need some corrections, for example, a tank doesn't loose the full mobility if one track is damaged. A damaged turret (so it can't turn anymore) does not necessarily mean that the tank can't fire anymore. The CMBB accuracy & penetration model itself is IMO mostly okay. At least it is much better then in CMBO.

* Aircrafts should be displayed, even a generic 3D model would be better then the invisible dead from above.

* More different buildings and fortifications, better building damages. 3D trenches.

* smaller map tiles, better minor rivers, brooks, pathes (in woods, for exampl) etc

* tank wrecks in map editor

[killmore]

I only care about WWII.

Pacific is boring to me because it would not contain enough tank battles. One jungle assault after another....

Early war might be interesting. But thats just Poland and France.

Africa is more mid-war.

I would love to see better graphics, real time option, no borgs.

East front has more variety so I prefer it.

What I really want is a GI Combat/CM mix on east front.

[Scipio]

Pacific is difficult, cause it doesn't offer many variations. Except they include China-Japan and maybe even Korea. Well, that would mean a time range of 15 years or so.

Early war includes also Benelux & Norge. A hypothetical England would be possible, too, but I don't think that it makes any important difference to France regarding units and terraine. I think Yugoslavia & Greece (includisive Krete) belongs here, too.

Mediterran includes Nothern Africa, Sicilly, Italy - but in this case, Nothern France (=CMBO) would be automatical a part of it, I don't think that there is a serious difference regarding terraine and units in 44/45.

Well, the graphics...I guess this is an issue of the engine. The texture quality is good, even if the terraine, especially the buildings, are a bit one-sided. Can't say much about it, cause nothing about the used engine techniques is known.

I guess the engine rewrite will take two years (if one person must do everything), maybe more - what of the new developments will go into the graphics engine? Charles Moylan has surely made a god job if I keep in mind that he has (AFAIK) programed the whole game including the grahic engine on his own. Of course, CM is still state of art, compared with other wargames. The most of them look like the graphic development has stopped in 1990 - but anyway, maybe a 3D graphic specialist could make more out of it?

[aka_tom_w]

Steve has recently said: "Absolutely NO WAY!" to any suggestion of doing anything in the WWI PTO

Can't find the quote

BUT I know they said they would not be doing ANYTHING in Pacific at all.

-tom w

[gunnergoz]

Well, if I know the BFC fellas at all, based upon what I've seen them post here over time, I'd have to guess:

1. They will code for some topic, era and theatre of war that interests them, trying for accuracy and playability.

2. They will ignore other areas of warfare that do not involve #1.

3. They will eschew mass-market appeal gimmicks (graphics, RTS, etc) if they violate #1.

4. They will attempt to reach as many wargamers as possible with the product, but not at the expense of their own corporate independence.

5. They will make a profit from their efforts, they don't do all this for free after all.

6. They will think long and hard about what they can realistically achieve given the fact that they want to keep their oganization small and centralized.

7. They will listen to us, their client base, but will in the end do what darn well suits them.

It's their sand box and their toys, after all...

[KNac]

It seems that this is full of dreamers (wrong word?). Please people keep real and stick to the real world while demanding things.

There are a lot of things to take into account: manpower, economy, knowledge, time, preferences (their), etc etc etc.

Personally I would like a WWII RT FPS perpective, Bn level, hardcore CoC, top-end graphics (last unreal engine), with armor sim included and CAs. off course ultra realistic

But I know it isn't going to happen.

[-Havermeyer-]

Three full pages of speculation.

Bravo!

[kipanderson]

Hi,

Yup, in most wargaming circles, in my experience of monitoring these things, the Big Three are, Eastern Front, NWE, and Cold War. Of course, many people have other likes and dislikes too, including me. But the above are commercially the Big Three, from what I have seen.

Hence, I would like to see Cold War next, then back to NWE, then Eastern Front. And, yes, as someone else also said, the Number One setting for wargames is, in my view, Eastern Front.

However, I would be surprised if BFC were on less than a five year cycle, so may be NWE the one after next. It is clear to me, that although the desert is popular with some, there is not really what I would call “mass interest”, same goes for Early War, Poland, France and such. Given that there is not mass interest, and given that we are currently rationed to one new CM game every two years, it would be a bit of a waste to go for the desert, in my very prejudice view.

I have a hunch that Cold War may turn up. If not, back to Western Europe.

All the best,

Kip.

[KNac]

Cold War is a total different world because of weapons/technology (unless you say early Cold War which is not that interesting), and probably if an engine is coded for Cold War it wouldn't be usable for WWII or the other way (however, honestly, Col War engine would be easier to go WWII than the other way).

I really don't care what they are going to model while it's WWII warfare (Pacific was the biggest problem for me, but we already know that one is discarted), if we have to move from WWII I prefer modern warfare (Cold War 1970+).

[Gyrene]

If BFC released a patch for CMBB with Brits, US & French troops they'd have a North Africa game ready out of the box.

Just use the CMBB code, add in every vehicle & human unit type from 1935 to 1954, add a few extra terrain types, allow the building of custom squads & platoons and release it as Combat Mission: Universal Simulator and I'd never leave the house again.

Gyrene

[Benton]

I would like to see the Extreme Fog-of-War augmented to include terrain. The specific features of terrain (trees, houses, knolls, hedges, etc) should not be known at all, or at least without greater specificity than was available on maps in the troops hands. The battlefield should be shown vaguely (like the gray generic Tank? figures) until they come into the line-of-sight of troops.

[Wolfe]

Originally posted by -Havermeyer-:

Three full pages of speculation.

Bravo!

The last thread on this topic:

CM3

And the one before that:

Vtoraya Mirovaya

CMII Engine re-write is definitely next. What order they do things in after that is still up in the air, AFAIK. But from previous posts by BTS (some very old) the impression I get is:

CM3 - Med: North Africa, Italy, Greece, and Crete.

CM4 - Early war: Poland, Yugo, France, Low Countries, Finnish Winter War. Don't know about Norway.

CM5 - Revisit CMBO with the new engine.

CM6 - Revisit CMBB with the new engine.

My $0.02.

- Chris

[MikeyD]

We're not casting out nets wide enough! Why not the Peloponnesian war! 450(?) BC or so. Chariots, cavalry, Phalanxes, Sea battles...

[Panzer Leader]

Anyone given any thought to combining (wolfe's) proposed CM3 and CM4 into one game? I think it's a good idear!

Ahh, hell, put me on the "Complete WW2 package" band-wagon. I'll even wait...2-1/2 yrs for that!

[Bruno Weiss]

There was a time when I might agree with that, but this is the new millenium and I suspect that at least a few of the fellows might get the wrong idea about how to use them Phalanxes.

[Wolfe]

Originally posted by Panzer Leader:

Anyone given any thought to combining (wolfe's) proposed CM3 and CM4 into one game? I think it's a good idear!

What, you wanna see Steve keel over from having to do all those TO&Es for one game?!? Talk about cruel and unusual punishment.

- Chris

[aka_tom_w]

Originally posted by Benton:

I would like to see the Extreme Fog-of-War augmented to include terrain. The specific features of terrain (trees, houses, knolls, hedges, etc) should not be known at all, or at least without greater specificity than was available on maps in the troops hands. The battlefield should be shown vaguely (like the gray generic Tank? figures) until they come into the line-of-sight of troops.

YES to Terrain EFOW

That has been discussed at some length here before.

Terrain FOW would be a VERY inovative feature to this game. This would imply that until your units had LOS to all the battlefield you would only know what it might be like from the crappy road map you have to start with or if you are lucky a Topographic map. The problem with the topo map is that this is no way to show contour lines on CMBO or CMBB maps. :confused:

its is still a GREAT idea.

Terrain FOW should go on the Wish list for sure!

(ok ok, as an OPITION to keep some folks around here from yelling at me:) )

-tom w

[Scipio]

Originally posted by aka_tom_w:

... The problem with the topo map is that this is no way to show contour lines on CMBO or CMBB maps...

Really? We have a 2D topo map with display of height in the map editor already.

[desertrat1943]

Originally posted by KNac:

It seems that this is full of dreamers (wrong word?). Please people keep real and stick to the real world while demanding things.

There are a lot of things to take into account: manpower, economy, knowledge, time, preferences (their), etc etc etc.

Well, if BTF wants to share with us their business plan, organization scheme, etc. then we poor dreamers could get a better idea of what they can and what they cennot accomplish. :confused: Come on! Forums are made to float things around, even the impossible ones. :cool:

[Scipio]

Originally posted by desertrat1943:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by KNac:

It seems that this is full of dreamers (wrong word?). Please people keep real and stick to the real world while demanding things.

There are a lot of things to take into account: manpower, economy, knowledge, time, preferences (their), etc etc etc.

Well, if BTF wants to share with us their business plan, organization scheme, etc. then we poor dreamers could get a better idea of what they can and what they cennot accomplish. :confused: Come on! Forums are made to float things around, even the impossible ones. :cool: </font>

[Slapdragon]

One of the things I thing the next CM will be is something that all of us out front will not likely appreciate all that much, but which in the long run we should all clamor for and beg the god of gamers on our knees for while slathering Peng up with cookie batter and gibbering in tounges like Seanachi drunk on cheap wine is a modular CM engine.

A modular engine would be one designed to act as a center peice for any era based on a set of rules and UI, with an easier to modify chasis around it. That would mean the new gimmicks coming up would be at the center of the CM design, the outer parts of which could be worked on by teams of designers. Thus, Charles would concentrate on a portable code, and other designers would merely work on the huge amount of research needed to tie this all together into games. In essence, the time between game releases could go from 2-3 years, to much more rapidly, and areas which BTS does not at this time have as much interest in could be opened up.

The work on CM:BB was a huge labor, made more huge by the fact that the application does not seem to be designed to be plugged into, thus leaving Charles with lots of work to get the system turned into another arena.

This does not mean that the environments would be moddable, namely that anyone could tinker with the stats and the models, but that research groups with less programming skill could work on the meat that surrounds the standard bones of the next CM system.

Just an idea.