Do I have the right to bitch?

[Captain Wacky]

I have just started a PBEM with an opponent who shall remain nameless (I don't think he's on the forum though).

It is a 1500pt meeting engagement in June 1944, the map is rural, with light trees, and flat. I agreed to this (without knowing my force makeup or my opponents), and also to play as the French. My forces were auto-picked.

My forces:

1 M4A3(65)W

2 M4A2

1 M10 TD

1 M8 Greyhound

4 M5A1 Stuarts

2 M20 Utility Car

2 .50cal Jeep

2 Platoons infantry

1 .50cal Machine Gun

2 .30cal Machine Gun

4 Bazooka

3 60mm Mortar

Now here is what I have seen from my opponent:

4 Panther G

3 StuH 42

1 Unidentified Assualt Gun (most likely 4th StuH 42)

1 Platoon Infantry

Here is my bitch:

Now I realize that I have the advantage in infantry-but look at the tanks my opponent got (which were obiously not auto picked-I have never seen the computer pick 4 Panther G & 4 StuH in a 1500pt ME)! All the light armor I got is completely useless against his. The map is nearly devoid of any worthwhile cover, so I have no way to move in for a flank shot. My one measely M10 is the only threat I pose to him. His Panthers merely sit on the other end of the map and blast away with impunity, while I have no means to return fire.

He has 4 medium and 4 heavy tanks to my 3 medium and 4 light, on a map which is completely boosts his strengths and magnifies my weaknesses. My infantry is practically useless to to lack of cover.

When he told me that my forces would be auto-picked, I naturally assumed that so would his. This was obviously not the case (4 PzVG & 4 StuH in 1500pt)

Is my bitch legitimate?

[Pzman]

If he said he would do an auto pick of his forces you do have the right, but if not then no.

[phil stanbridge]

It seems a tad unfair, especially if you didn't know he was going to pick his selection. However, it's only a game, and wouldn't he be surprised if you actually beat him. It's certainly possible. Try using your afv's in pairs (or larger groups where possible), and try flanking the Panthers at close range.

[Captain Wacky]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by phil stanbridge:

It seems a tad unfair, especially if you didn't know he was going to pick his selection. However, it's only a game, and wouldn't he be surprised if you actually beat him. It's certainly possible. Try using your afv's in pairs (or larger groups where possible), and try flanking the Panthers at close range.<hr></blockquote>

That would involve mad dashes across open territory with 37mm Stuarts vs 75mm panthers & 105mm StuHs Maybe I'll give it a try when I get really desperate.

I still think it was a pretty dirty thing to do.

[Hepcat]

I think that your opponent tricked you by not revealing that his forces were hand-picked. You do have the right not to play, after all, this isn't a tournament match. No need to gripe, just deny him your participation.

[The Commissar]

Wacky,

IMHO, dump the bastard. Why the heck do you need to suffer through a game stacked totally against you? Unless of course you are enjoying the game (and it doesnt sound like it judging by the title of your post), there is no reason to play the game. Simply tell your opponent this is not your idea of fun and surrender.

Unless it is ladder of course. Then you're going to have to pursuade him somehow that what the AI gave you and what the AI (or he himself, as you think) granted him is very unbalanced given the terrain. Good luck!

[Schrullenhaft]

Before submitting your next turn just ask your opponent, politely, if he hand-picked his forces. If he replies that he has (if he's an honest person), then ask him if you can cancel your current game and start a new one. I'd tell him your feelings on the fairness of the force selection (computer vs. hand-picked) and how they should be the same for both sides.

If your opponent isn't polite enough to accept the offer for a different game, then they may not be worth your time.

You can also attempt to finish your current game (with the obvious disadvantage that you're at), if the effort and challenge is worth your time, and then state your feelings about PBEM etiquette.

[Col Deadmarsh]

Frankly, I would never agree to play as Allies on a map with anything less than medium trees--human or computer picked forces. I suppose as the Allies you could win by smoking and manuevering but that just doesn't seem like fun to me--or fair either.

[Wanderer]

Seems like your opponent tricked you. Of course he can always say that he never said he wasn't picking his forces.

Did he get to pick the terrain also?

You should tell him high command forbids you to engage his forces due to the high probability you will take unaceptable casualties.

He is a bad chap.

[Louie the Toad]

I like what Shrullenhaft has to say about this situation.

In addition you could also add the fact that if in reality your force ran into his force, your force would most likely not advance but set up defensive positions while sending back for bigger guns, or an airstrike. Your force might even retreat back off the map in order to find better ground since there is a lack of good ground in the area. Since this battle would really not be fought in isolation but be related to an operation, this solution should be acceptable.

If you opponent has a problem, send him this thread.

Strength in numbers... Toad

[Kingfish]

Play him. Take the challenge. Insist on playing the entire game thru 'till the end. Granted, you are at a disadvantage, but your force is far more mobile and you outnumber his infantry. His force, while formidable, is not well balanced. There are weaknesses there that you could use against him. Your mobility is a threat, especially if you get far enough forward to flank him.

[MarkEzra]

I have played alot of CM PBEM so let me tell you what I would have done and what I would NOT have done.

Would Have Done: When I saw the set up I would have confirmed that his force were/were not auto selected. If he said yes (OK so maybe I don't believe him either!) I'd pop smoke and do my damndest to do him some damage. If he said that he had selected his units (inadvertantly I'm sure) I 'd just scratch the game and start another. If he did say auto select but you don't buy it: Play win/lose and thank him for the game. Don't except a rematch.

What I would NOT have done: post a thread. You don't sound like you actually confronted the guy (do please correct me if I'm wrong) with the only question "Did he use auto select"? Odd things happen in CM including, I'm sure, in auto select games. Now, because you have posted a thread that he just might be reading, feelings can be hurt, and recrimination can bounce about all over the forum. As I write this I remembered an early auto select game I played as Brits. My largest weapon was 37mm Stuart and the 2lber Humber. I recall being up against both Stuggs and Panthers. I don't recall if I won or lost , but it was one hell of a fight. I felt pretty screwed about it, too. But I had no doubts about my OPFOR. I have played the guy many, many times since then.

[Iron Chef Sakai]

Is this realy a topic?

[nikib]

This is funny. I'm playing a very similar game.

Is your victory point situated reasonably centrally in a forest? Plus are most the the village buildings on the German side? If so I'm playing a very similar game - and I'm getting rogered. Stupid tactics as I rushed forward right from the start (though in my defence it was for cover). First turn whammo with a couple knocked out. By the third or so turn all of my Shermans were knocked out.

Uncanny.

[Captain Wacky]

The game is a ladder match, but I really don't care about my standing at all. I hardly ever play ladder games anymore, as the Antithicess thread provides me with plenty of opponents. Having the deck stacked against me though just flew in the face of fair play.

Anyway, revenge is the best answer for such tactics. I'll see what I can do against him. I have knocked out 2 of his StuH 42 at the cost of an M8 and an M5A1. His arty spotting rounds have also begun to fall (note that I did not receive any off-board arty).

The problem is the terrain. My only choice is to smoke like hell and move forward-but the catch is his Panther are strung across the tiny map, preventing me from turning a flank. It will be interesting...

[Captain Wacky]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by nikib:

This is funny. I'm playing a very similar game.

Is your victory point situated reasonably centrally in a forest? Plus are most the the village buildings on the German side? If so I'm playing a very similar game - and I'm getting rogered. Stupid tactics as I rushed forward right from the start (though in my defence it was for cover). First turn whammo with a couple knocked out. By the third or so turn all of my Shermans were knocked out.

Uncanny.<hr></blockquote>

That sounds damn familiar-is there a building in the right corner of the Allied side?

[Seanachai]

You have the right to an attorney.

Should you not be able to afford an attorney (and who can), one will be appointed to you by The Peng Challenge Thread. We have our Own.

They'll tell you that you're a fecking idjit (inarguable conclusion, given that you play opponents both outside the Peng Challenge Thread, and that other rather half-witted opposition thread).

Ladders. The last refuge of lame whores for whom status and winning are more important than Honour, and Reputation, and Ability.

In the Peng Challenge Thread, we value our Opponents, even while we belittle their ancestors and mental abilities.

Why would you play some arsehole who's only concern is whether he can claim a victory over you, whatever the cost to honour?

Bah!

I would offer a 'start over' to an opponent who found himself at this (honestly) given level of disadvantage. In fact, I have.

This is the uselessness of 'ladder' playing, and tournaments. They are, to a disturbing degree, populated by ahistorical cherry-pickers, bent on 'winning' over playing a fair game, and willing to indulge in any sort of mendacity to gain an advantage.

I can't even imagine assigning computer purchase of units to my opponent while freely picking my own. To me, if this is what your opponent chose, it sounds like the ultimate pissant ****e.

But that's just me. Heck, I know there are all sorts of good reasons why useless, lame whores would have to cheat in order to prove their 'superiourity' at Combat Mission.

Still, we don't know all ends. He could be cast in the role of villain without cause. He could, conceivably, be just the happy recipient of the greatest blessing in modern warfare.

But, it all sounds a bit suspicious. And I won't play ladder whores. So do me the very great favour of sending me his screen name by private email. Not that someone so bereft of honour would ever be accepted on to the Peng Challenge Thread, but just in case.

[Michael Dorosh]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Seanachai:

and that other rather half-witted opposition thread).<hr></blockquote>

"Half-witted" is the best you can come up with?

Like I said...t'weren't my idea.

On a serious note, though - I have it on good authority that the best opponents are indeed found in the Peng Thread. Kind of funny - I mean, who would have thought it?

I agree with you re: ladder-whores. Not all ladder-whores play on ladders, unfortunately.

[ 01-06-2002: Message edited by: Michael Dorosh ]</p>

[Seanachai]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

"Half-witted" is the best you can come up with?

Like I said...t'weren't my idea.<hr></blockquote>

Lad, "Half-witted" is my attempt at humanity, given that they are forced to post on the General Forum, while we post here, in the Combat Mission Forum.

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>On a serious note, though - I have it on good authority that the best opponents are indeed found in the Peng Thread. Kind of funny - I mean, who would have thought it?

I agree with you re: ladder-whores. Not all ladder-whores play on ladders, unfortunately.

[ 01-06-2002: Message edited by: Michael Dorosh ]<hr></blockquote>

Not so hard to believe. We have been tasked with vulgar behaviour, elitism, heirarchical nonsense, and intelligence with intent.

What the Peng Challenge Thread amounts to is 'Sod That For a Lark, What Can You Bring To This Most Noble of Taunting Threads?'

Yes, we exact conditions of participation. Yes, we look for a standard of existence. Yo, we test every participant. Far more, and more thoroughly, than any goddamn 'Ladder' participant (Do you want to win at any cost?!!! Do you Care Nothing About the Game Other Than Winning??!!!! Then go to: www.CMladder.com, and register your complete lack of honour now!)

We have a seperate standard.

We acknowledge literature. We acknowledge poetry. We acknowledge the jolly sing-song.

Oh, and most of all, we acknowledge taunting, honour, history, the joys of gameyness, playing fair, and Each Other.

Useless, sodding little arseholes don't come here. And those who do, don't last.

No one gets a game without a serious contribution, of some sort.

[Vanir Ausf B]

First time in my life I've been called a whore (as opposed to a slut, which I have heard before). I find that mildly amusing.

Wacky: It is partially your own fault for assuming. Having said that, yes, you have almost certainly been had. The problem is that you can't really do anything about it because you can't prove it, and even if he did what you think he did he didn't violate any agreement.

As others have stated, you have 3 choices:

1. Ask for a restart after confirming he did pick his own troops. If that doesn't work, then...

2. Surrender the game and be done with it. If you really don't care about your ladder record (you're not the only ladder player that doesn't BTW) it's no big deal. Or...

3. Play it out. People who do these kinds of things are almost never good players. You might be able to pull out a draw, which would surely piss him off.

Are you RD or T-House? If you are RD please email me this guys name.

[Vanir Ausf B]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Iron Chef Sakai:

Is this realy a topic?<hr></blockquote>

Is that really a post?

[Cogust]

Captain Whacky,

A member of the Band of Brothers CM-club complained a little about a 'random' game earlier and it seems to me that the German force is identic to the one you describe. He was approached by this guy who wanted to play some random CM-games and he ahsn't played him earlier or something.

I guess we have a guy sending out 'rigged' scenarios to people to gain easy ladder points or what not, maybe he just wants to win. :mad:

[Kingfish]

Wouldn't it make sense for ladder players to have each game started by a neutral third party? IMO, That would take care of gamey force / map picks.

They could make that some sort of mandatory rule. If you want to take a shot at advancing up the ladder then you have to play 3rd party games.

[Michael Dorosh]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Seanachai:

Lad, "Half-witted" is my attempt at humanity, given that they are forced to post on the General Forum, while we post here, in the Combat Mission Forum.

<hr></blockquote>

Forced?

More like volunteered - out of respect for the one, the only, the mutha-beautiful thread - the longest running thread in CM history and threatening to be the longest running thread in Internet history.

Now take a bow, ya git.

[Louie the Toad]

Cap'n Wacky,

Bye the way, how are you doing in the game?

Which course are you following?

Curious Toad.