Can anyone identify this flag?

[Frenchy]

Croda:

I have several books on nazi Heraldy and flags at the house. I'll look them up to see if there may be any reference to the flag.

Iron Chef - it is a Nazi flag - of a local party nature in my opinion. The fact that is was captured in Heidelburg in late March/April 1945 makes it so. You are correct that the symbol has been used through out history - but its use during the Nazi regime makes it permanently associated with them. Anyone who sees the swastika will remark "Oh, nazis." not "...oh, a good luck symbol seen in ancient Jewish temples."

I've not seen an official nazi flag of that white background. My grandfather brought home a couple flags from occupied France and Germany after the war and both had the circular white backgound.

Croda - give me some time and I'll see what I can dig up.

[aka_tom_w]

Originally posted by Iron Chef Sakai:

I don't think that it even a Gemran flag at all. And i do not beleive that is from the 2nd world war. The swastika before the nazi's got a hold of it was a universal good luck symbol in many cultures. You can find swastikas in ancient jewish temples.

I know nothing about flags. BUT I though the Nazi's inverted the swastika when they "adopted" it.

any acient use of thaat symbol like that which Iron Chef Sakai is refering to (do not beleive that is from the 2nd world war. The swastika before the nazi's got a hold of it was a universal good luck symbol in many cultures. You can find swastikas in ancient jewish temples) would show an inverted or backwards swastika to the one shown in the photo.

No?

-tom w

[Croda]

Hey, Frenchy, thanks a ton! I was going to start checking heraldry websites myself. Late night searching proved fruitless for me, but I suppose it'll be some time before I find something.

Anything you can turn up would be greatly appreciated.

[Munter]

The Finnish Air Force is still using a Finnish swastika on their shoulder straps and unit flags.

http://www.ilmavoimat.fi/laplsto/historia.htm

If it offends somebodys feelings, so be it. We're not ashamed of using it.

M

[Feldgendarm]

I'm not completely sure, but I think it might be a flag used by police. The white pattern is exactly shaped like the traditional German police symbol, the Polizeistern or police star. The star itself is still in use on caps, buildings etc. today, bearing the Länder arms in its center. So it might be a good guess that this flag belonged to some police formation. BTW, it might also be a flag used by firefighters since they were part of police as Feuerpolizei during the Third Reich (their fire engines were also painted in police green instead of red then).

Greetings,

Feldgendarm

[illo]

Originally posted by Munter:

The Finnish Air Force is still using a Finnish swastika on their shoulder straps and unit flags.

"It is called a Von Rosen cross because the first two airplanes, Thulin Parasols - licence-built copies of a Morane Saulnier design - that formed the FAF were donated by a Swedish count Erik Von Rosen shortly after Finland's independence from the chaos of Russian revolution. The cross was the traditional symbol of good luck for the Von Rosen family. They probably had picked it up from Indian Aryan mythology where the swastika is a symbol for the Sun and, incidentally, good luck."

quote from VLeLv Icebreakers.

[ February 26, 2002, 09:57 AM: Message edited by: illo ]

[Ex Bellator]

I know nothing about flags. BUT I though the Nazi's inverted the swastika when they "adopted" it.

any acient use of thaat symbol like that which Iron Chef Sakai is refering to (do not beleive that is from the 2nd world war. The swastika before the nazi's got a hold of it was a universal good luck symbol in many cultures. You can find swastikas in ancient jewish temples) would show an inverted or backwards swastika to the one shown in the photo.

No?

Tom - you are right. A clockwise rotating swastika is an ancient symbol of life and harmony, used by several cultures throughout history.

The Nazis took this symbol and then reversed it to reflect their ideology, so you may be assured Mr Sakai that if you see an anti-clockwise swastika it is a Nazi symbol every time.

[Juju]

Except for a missing large blue cross across it, it looks very much like the background of the Mutterkreuz (Yep, rewarded to mothers for having 4, 6 or 8 children).

Farfetched though...

[M Hofbauer]

my first post disappeared so here goes again:

why don't you try asking the guys at flags of the world, I am sure they know the abnswer or at least can point you towards someone who can help.

http://www.fotw.ca/flags/

feldgendarm,

I do not think it is a police flag, since although they incorporated the swastika they were usually green, compare: http://www.fotw.ca/flags/de_933po.html

[Bruno Weiss]

I doubt that flag was a police flag. From what I can find, it seems most Reich police flags were green in color, Police Flags 1937-1945 (Germany) and were more localized in the design of their crests, with designs denoting less abstraction and more specifics than the one Croda has. I agree with Croda's first assumption that the color red probably indicates a party or military affiliation.

Croda, you might try writing to Flagspot rob.raeside@acadiau.ca and attaching a pic of that flag. I've communicated with them in the past and they were very helpful. You might capture their interest and get some research out of them.

The tongue-in-cheek about the Reich Daisey Society might not be as absurd as it sounds. The Nazi party created heralds, flags, banners, and emblems to represent everything from the Young Womens League to the Civilian Machinists Guild. You name it, it had a flag, banner, or crest of some sort. In addition, the party itself, and the party within countries where the Germans had established themselves (occupied), were all authorized to and indeed practiced the creation of flags and banners as well as cities, regions, and local political offices.

The crest behind the swastika on your flag looks very much like the crest in this picture, National Air Protection League, which was the banner of the Reichsluftschutz Bund / RLB.

The RLB was a civil defence organization founded in 1935 on the order of Hermann Göring. The similarity of the two designs caught my interest. Although the background color red on your flag as I said before IMO, denotes a closer affiliation with either the party or the military rather than that of civilian origin.

I whole heartedly agree with Steve. Your flag is not a common flag IMO, and as such might represent both something of value as a collector item, and/or something of a lost piece of history. In either event, it is something I would press on to properly identify and take careful measures to preserve.

[ February 26, 2002, 09:46 AM: Message edited by: Bruno Weiss ]

[Garulfo]

Hofbauer,

I'm not that sure if there is no connection with the police. A police star is the first thing I thought about because the ressemblance with the star the Dutch police used to wear is quite striking. Another remarkable fact to my opinion is that the nazi flag star and the star on the flag from the Thuringia State Police as shown on http://www.fotw.ca/flags/de_933po.html have exactly the same number op "petals" in the same waving eight pointed pattern:

Now, how probable is that for a coincidence?

I'm not trying to say that it IS a police star but it seems to me that there is probably a connection between te two, maybe because of a common back ground.

On the same site, an page can be found with several flags from the East German police after the war with the same ressemblance on http://www.fotw.ca/flags/de^ddrvp.html like this one:

Dutch examples of the police stars:

[ February 26, 2002, 10:17 AM: Message edited by: Garulfo ]

[aka_tom_w]

Originally posted by Rex_Bellator:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> I know nothing about flags. BUT I though the Nazi's inverted the swastika when they "adopted" it.

any acient use of thaat symbol like that which Iron Chef Sakai is refering to (do not beleive that is from the 2nd world war. The swastika before the nazi's got a hold of it was a universal good luck symbol in many cultures. You can find swastikas in ancient jewish temples) would show an inverted or backwards swastika to the one shown in the photo.

No?

Tom - you are right. A clockwise rotating swastika is an ancient symbol of life and harmony, used by several cultures throughout history.

The Nazis took this symbol and then reversed it to reflect their ideology, so you may be assured Mr Sakai that if you see an anti-clockwise swastika it is a Nazi symbol every time.</font>

[WWB]

Originally posted by aka_tom_w:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Iron Chef Sakai:

I don't think that it even a Gemran flag at all. And i do not beleive that is from the 2nd world war. The swastika before the nazi's got a hold of it was a universal good luck symbol in many cultures. You can find swastikas in ancient jewish temples.

I know nothing about flags. BUT I though the Nazi's inverted the swastika when they "adopted" it.

any acient use of thaat symbol like that which Iron Chef Sakai is refering to (do not beleive that is from the 2nd world war. The swastika before the nazi's got a hold of it was a universal good luck symbol in many cultures. You can find swastikas in ancient jewish temples) would show an inverted or backwards swastika to the one shown in the photo.

No?

-tom w</font>

[Slapdragon]

Originally posted by Rex_Bellator:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> I know nothing about flags. BUT I though the Nazi's inverted the swastika when they "adopted" it.

any acient use of thaat symbol like that which Iron Chef Sakai is refering to (do not beleive that is from the 2nd world war. The swastika before the nazi's got a hold of it was a universal good luck symbol in many cultures. You can find swastikas in ancient jewish temples) would show an inverted or backwards swastika to the one shown in the photo.

No?

Tom - you are right. A clockwise rotating swastika is an ancient symbol of life and harmony, used by several cultures throughout history.

The Nazis took this symbol and then reversed it to reflect their ideology, so you may be assured Mr Sakai that if you see an anti-clockwise swastika it is a Nazi symbol every time.</font>

[Battlefront.com]

Iron Chef Sakai,

BTS.........if i know so little......then where is your answer to the question?

Uhm... I don't have one because I don't pretend to know things I don't know. This is a lesson you would be wise to learn. I know quite a bit about this topic, enough to know that I don't know everything. If you think you know everything, and make public statements which support this point of view, expect people to remind you how little you really know.

Tom said it best:

Iron Chef Sakai its stuff like your comment suggesting the flag might be something other than a Nazi symbol that prompted Steve (MR. BTS) to, I don't know how to put this... but, Bust you for demonstrating such a gaping lack of knowledge.

Exactly. While I have clearly said I don't have an answer, but rather an educated guess... you came right off and clearly stated it was not a Nazi flag and then tossed in a bunch of stuff that pretty much everybody knows as if it were knowledge known by only a few. Since you expressed your opinion as if it were an open and shut case, you deserved to be reminded that you don't know nearly as much as you think you do because... well, you constantly make it painfully clear you don't. This is a regular pattern with you ever since your first post (as are your multiple responses one right after the other, which are annoying to say the least).

Steve

[ February 26, 2002, 12:30 PM: Message edited by: Big Time Software ]

[Commissar]

Originally posted by Rex_Bellator:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> I know nothing about flags. BUT I though the Nazi's inverted the swastika when they "adopted" it.

any acient use of thaat symbol like that which Iron Chef Sakai is refering to (do not beleive that is from the 2nd world war. The swastika before the nazi's got a hold of it was a universal good luck symbol in many cultures. You can find swastikas in ancient jewish temples) would show an inverted or backwards swastika to the one shown in the photo.

No?

Tom - you are right. A clockwise rotating swastika is an ancient symbol of life and harmony, used by several cultures throughout history.

The Nazis took this symbol and then reversed it to reflect their ideology, so you may be assured Mr Sakai that if you see an anti-clockwise swastika it is a Nazi symbol every time.</font>

[dfgardner]

Originally posted by illo:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Munter:

The Finnish Air Force is still using a Finnish swastika on their shoulder straps and unit flags.

"It is called a Von Rosen cross because the first two airplanes, Thulin Parasols - licence-built copies of a Morane Saulnier design - that formed the FAF were donated by a Swedish count Erik Von Rosen shortly after Finland's independence from the chaos of Russian revolution. The cross was the traditional symbol of good luck for the Von Rosen family. They probably had picked it up from Indian Aryan mythology where the swastika is a symbol for the Sun and, incidentally, good luck."

quote from VLeLv Icebreakers.

</font>

[Bruno Weiss]

Hehe, wouldn't Joseph Goebles love this conversation. "Ja! Our emblem is as you know, recognized by all as one of peace, harmony, and love for all mankind throughout der vorld."

Good points you make there Garulfo. I'd say though that the design seems to be fairly well used to represent different abstracts. Propellers, swords, and stars. Hmm, interesting they have the same number of appendages however, (I didn't count them, I trust ya).

The tips are rounded, which seem to me to portray either swords or propellers (who the devil knows what the designer had in mind for real). I think it looks pretty close to the design on the RLB flag.

Well whatever it is, I doubt it is the flag of the ancient Goozesteps of South America or somefink.

[ February 26, 2002, 12:42 PM: Message edited by: Bruno Weiss ]

[Slapdragon]

Just because I used to grow flowers:

The flower on the flag is a Kornblume -- centaurea cyanus (called a "Bachelor's Button" in the US or sometimes a “Cornflower” after the German usage), of the order compositae. It was the favorite flower of "Kaiser" Wilhelm I and incorporated into many German images. In the US you see the flower all of the time in German – American parades. It is a symbol of the traditional German spirit.

The symbol on the flag is sometimes seen in Estonian symbology, where the Cornflower is also seen as a symbol of traditional Germanic values. In fact, it is the current national flower of Estonia. This is also one of the reasons why that particular shade of blue is associated with the Estonian state.

[Croda]

One more piece of information that may lead is in one particular direction is this: Rereading the part in his journal he states that he took the flag from the front of one of the houses they were billeted in. This would lead me to believe it is more of a civil service type of flag (police, fire, local gov't, etc.) than military based, however the coloring still seems to suggest a strong party affiliation to me.

Well, just that little bit more to add. Thanks to all who've posted some really good stuff, and those who haven't, well...

[jshandorf]

Yeah, like dfgardner, I would also like to know where the 109-G (Looks like a G) is located! There aren't too many 109s left in the world and I am very curious where this one is!

Also, any know where any Fw190s are located?

Thanks,

Jeff

P.S. I love you, Steve. Marry me.

[Bruno Weiss]

Ah Ha! There we have it. It is the Nazi Cornstarch flag. Must have decorated kitchens throughout the Reich.

[Iron Chef Sakai]

Originally posted by Big Time Software:

Iron Chef Sakai,

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />BTS.........if i know so little......then where is your answer to the question?

Uhm... I don't have one because I don't pretend to know things I don't know. This is a lesson you would be wise to learn. I know quite a bit about this topic, enough to know that I don't know everything. If you think you know everything, and make public statements which support this point of view, expect people to remind you how little you really know.

Tom said it best:

Iron Chef Sakai its stuff like your comment suggesting the flag might be something other than a Nazi symbol that prompted Steve (MR. BTS) to, I don't know how to put this... but, Bust you for demonstrating such a gaping lack of knowledge.

Exactly. While I have clearly said I don't have an answer, but rather an educated guess... you came right off and clearly stated it was not a Nazi flag and then tossed in a bunch of stuff that pretty much everybody knows as if it were knowledge known by only a few. Since you expressed your opinion as if it were an open and shut case, you deserved to be reminded that you don't know nearly as much as you think you do because... well, you constantly make it painfully clear you don't. This is a regular pattern with you ever since your first post (as are your multiple responses one right after the other, which are annoying to say the least).

Steve</font>

[Slapdragon]

Originally posted by Iron Chef Sakai:

You can put any word in front of guess and you know what? It's still just a guess. My "educated" guess has still yet to be proven wrong so whats the big deal? When he finds out what that flag is all about and if my guess was wrong then i guess you could post an i told you so post but what is the point? I would'nt get all up in arms because we did'nt post the same guess too where the flags ture origin is from, this is supposed to be fun, loosen up....oh by the way, i;ve never played pictionary but i'm assuming it would be funny if you did.

ICS -- Steve is more talking about your methodology than your answer. When you take your first College history course you will see (if your prof is good) that methodology is more important than opinion in history. Everyone has an opinion, often of little worth, of history. This is why history is said to be socially constructed. But very few people use some sort of methodology is talking about historical truths.

[Bruno Weiss]

Everyone has an opinion, often of little worth

Who me?

Hehe, wouldn't a mattered if Croda had posted a picture of a teapot there'd been a fight break out.

I Love this place. Just keeps reminding me of Kelly's Hero's. "Sarge, I think I got the crabs."

[ February 26, 2002, 01:09 PM: Message edited by: Bruno Weiss ]