Steve, How are pre-sales going in USA?

[Jagdwyrm]

"Youall very lucky, at least you will get CMBB shortly after release date 9/20, while we poor Anglos have to wait to 10/4 for release of CDV Vers. I hope you can sleep at night."

When I get CMBB you think I'll be sleeping?...

[Some Dude]

I pondered if the order number I got with my pre order matched the number of products (all products, not just CMBO/CMBB) shipped by BTS. Mine was in the very low 80000's somewhere (The exact number is at home).

Darren

[gunnergoz]

Originally posted by BlackNemesis:

I pondered if the order number I got with my pre order matched the number of products (all products, not just CMBO/CMBB) shipped by BTS. Mine was in the very low 80000's somewhere (The exact number is at home).

Darren

Hmm, I wonder if that number series started this year, last year, 5 years ago, or what...?

[Cribtop Gamer]

I'm thrilled they're doing well, BTS! You deserve it.

This may sound weird, but if I really like CMBB, I'm considering buying a second copy to give to someone just to make BTS more $$$ and to share the greatness of this product.

I'm a software licensing attorney, so I'll weigh in with a few thoughts on sales. Keep in mind that everything I am about to say comes from the "standard" software model that BTS has wisely rejected. I imagine their cost structure is such that these numbers could be halved or even quartered and still leave them happy.

Anyhoo, in general, publishers pay developers an "advance" on royalties equal to about what the two companies plan to make on a certain number of copies (usually the figure is 400,000 copies, but this varies).

Although the "advance royalty" is non-refundable, the developer has to live, pay employees, keep the lights on, etc. with this money (that's why I put advance in quotes, as there is such a thing in my biz as a "true" advance royalty).

Thus, once the game is released, the developer sees el zippo for the number of copies "covered" by the "advance." The publisher takes 100% of sales of (usually) the first 400,000 copies to cover the development costs it paid to the developer.

AFTER we sell 400,000 copies for a "standard" mass-market game, then the developer finally starts seeing a SMALL percentage of each sale thereafter.

Thus, a mass-market game selling 500,000 copies did pretty well, one that sold 1,000,000 copies was a mega-hit, and the SIMS was just plain silly.

BTS doesn't have anything near this arrangement, and thus nothing like this cost structure. Still, "traditional" gaming media took notice that the game "sold well."

Based on this, on the decision to do a sequel, and on the expansion to 5 employees, I bet CMBO sold at least 100,000 copies and made BTS and Battlefront.com a nice chunk of change - well above their projections.

No ferrarris yet, but I really hope that CMBB, with its better graphics, pulls in numbers that would be considered a "mild hit" in the mass-market, say 500,000 worldwide.

Best of luck to two deserving companies, I say! I've already bought one copy.

[gunnergoz]

Originally posted by Cribtop Gamer:

I'm thrilled they're doing well, BTS! You deserve it.

(snip)

I'm a software licensing attorney, so I'll weigh in with a few thoughts on sales. ...(snip)

Landshark! Landshark alert! Lock up your daughters and T-bills!

Actually, I liked the post and echo the wishes.

[Canuck]

#7!

No wait I lied!! I haven't preordered. What number where we at?? Ok people, from the top! Start it back at #1

#1!! oh wait! there I go again...

[Battlefront.com]

Cribtop,

Interesting post. But really now, if we sold 100,000 units (direct) do you really think I would be sitting around here talking with you peons?

Seriously, there is something you missed in your calcs... we get 100% of the take less expenses. In a retail deal we would get 20% if we were a) lucky and really lucky By lucky I mean that we weren't dicked around with by the Publisher. Generally when they get through with things 20% goes down to something like 15-17%.

If they pay, they pay quarterly at best. And of course they offset returns and expenses before cutting a check. So you can sit there for 3 months waiting for money only to find out "sorry, we got x number of returns, but only y sales. Therefore, no money this quarter". Kinda hard to run a business when you have daily expenses but have no idea when, if, or how much money is coming your way.

Oh, I could go on but I won't The average developer's life is a really hard one. It is why nearly all go out of business even IF they make it to a successful product launch. And since those companies are but a fraction of the ones who start the process of making a game, the survival rate is really poor. Even "hit" companies like Atomic Games eventually get killed off by this vicious cycle. Sooner or later even a good company hits a bad product cycle and it is difficult to survive it when you have employees and overhead that still need to be paid.

Going direct eliminates these problems, but of course introduces a few more. However, for us it has worked out well in terms of stability and survivability. We might not be stinking rich, but we don't worry about staying in business on a daily basis like most developers do!

(as an aside, our deal with CDV is not counted on to keep basic overhead paid. When money comes in from them, and it does as well as on TIME, it just makes things better. If a quarter goes by without a check, no big deal from a survivability standpoint).

Steve

[Jussi Köhler]

CMBB pre-sales in Finland seem to go pretty well indeed. Player One shows CMBB as the 4th most sold game(I think this is a weekly changing list) at the moment, 3rd in PC-games...

This isnt even the only place in our backwards country where you can pre-order so I would guess that we are propably talking about 4 figured numbers...

And I've received the image that we (Backward Finns) are not very keen on pre-ordering anything... Wait till it hits the stores...

Jussi

[Prinz Eugen]

Originally posted by Jussi Köhler:

CMBB pre-sales in Finland seem to go pretty well indeed. Player One shows CMBB as the 4th most sold game(I think this is a weekly changing list) at the moment, 3rd in PC-games...

Hey, I didn't know that ! Groovy !

[Canuck]

Originally posted by Jussi Köhler:

CMBB pre-sales in Finland seem to go pretty well indeed. Player One shows CMBB as the 4th most sold game(I think this is a weekly changing list) at the moment, 3rd in PC-games...

Jussi

It's all about demographics. The fact of the matter is that CMBO (and in the future CMBB) is played mostly by...(how can I say this nicely?) middle-aged players who have a good income and who are commmited to playing practically this game and no other. I suppose that there is also a maturity level and a certain amount of honesty that comes in that makes them by the game rather than acquire it by "shady" means

In contrast, I'd say that games like QuakeIII, etc are played mainly by a younger generation, who have smaller incomes and who have enough internet savvy to know where to get games for free.

This, I argue, is the reason why CMBO and CMBB have done so well. They may not have the largest gaming audience, but they do have one of the largest dedicated audiences who are willing to pay for a good game. Where probably 99% of people play CMBO with a legitimate copy of the game I'd say probably closer to 50% of Quakers legitimately own the game.

[aka_tom_w]

good point!

"They may not have the largest

gaming audience, but they do have one of the largest dedicated audiences who are willing to pay for a

good game. Where probably 99% of people play CMBO with a legitimate copy of the game I'd say

probably closer to 50% of Quakers legitimately own the game. "

I would guess you could say more than %50 of Quake type gamers (twitch) might get their games by "other means" than actually buying it.

And I think that you are correct in suggesting a much, much HIGHER percentage of CMBO players actually bought the game from BFC.

and This is a good thing™

-tom w

[ September 12, 2002, 11:07 PM: Message edited by: aka_tom_w ]

[Hulldown]

best to you boys...game developers that is..

Just don't forget us when you are rich and famous

hmmmm....mb you are gettting there already?

[KG_Jag]

We middle age gamers are smart enough to know that the only way to keep our favorite war and sim game companies in business is to give them business--ours and any converts we can send their way. The same story seems to be playing out with guys like Koger, Tiller, Meier, Maddox and Grigsby. They have all gone to their own or small companies, or in Koger's case want to. Keep control, keep overhead low, put out an excellent product and take care of your customers. That's what all these guys and Battlefront apparently have concluded and try to practice (at varying levels of course). By the way, a number of very recent posts at Warfare HQ have been by younger (college age) gamers, who are just getting into wargaming. Specifically a number of them have shown great interest in CMBB and CMBO. Some of us grey beards have tried to encourage them. I even suggested to one of them that he check out the forums here. Hope that wasn't a mistake!

[ September 13, 2002, 01:21 AM: Message edited by: jagcommander ]

[Chad Harrison]

Originally posted by KwazyDog:

Guys, we arent going to give out figures here, as youve probably already guessed. Im happy to say that things are going very very well though

Dan

What did you expect? All 9000+ of us to sit around and wait a few more months until we buy this game? Two years was long enough for me

[Nidan1]

How do we calculate accurately when you have to take into account all the units that are being ordered in the States for shipment to our comrades in the countries in Europe who cant get it directly through CDV, or who are non German speakers?

I have pre-ordered 3 copies by the way. What is the count now?

I think that based on the traffic on this forum and others, CMBB is destined to be a highly sucessful product, Congrats to BTS, and thanks to us for having no real lives.

Which gives us the time to pursue our true passion, playing CMBO and CMBB :cool:

[medlinke]

I speak for steve when I say...

Pre-Orders....HAH!

Cabana Boy! Another Corona please...and don't forget the lime!

[Pvt. Ryan]

Originally posted by Nidan1:

How do we calculate accurately when you have to take into account all the units that are being ordered in the States for shipment to our comrades in the countries in Europe who cant get it directly through CDV, or who are non German speakers?

Although there is a very vocal group on the forum that despises the CDV distribution system, I presume that the number of customers ordering through alternate channels is miniscule compared to the total number of copies sold.

[Canuck]

Originally posted by Nidan1:

I have pre-ordered 3 copies by the way. What is the count now?

I like CM as much as the next person, but I would like to think that I won't require 3 copies of the game. I'm sure the boys at Battlefront would be just fine if everyone bought just one copy (not that they would admit that while they still have breath left in them)

[Poobear]

Originally posted by Canuck:

Let's see, I make that 10. By this rate BTS should recoupe their expenses

(ie. hookers, booz, and magical dancing dwarves) by 2010!

[ September 13, 2002, 05:59 PM: Message edited by: Poobear ]

[LightningWar]

If we storm the warehouse. What are the settings going to be like? Any restrictions?

And how many points will we get to use?

LW

[Chad Harrison]

Originally posted by LightningWar:

If we storm the warehouse. What are the settings going to be like? Any restrictions?

And how many points will we get to use?

LW

Somehow, if it was us Assaulting the BFC warehouse, I think we would be way to gamey to be considered within the scope of CM. You will have to wait until the engine rewrite to portray that.

Chad

[BFCElvis]

tomw makes an excellent point. Not long after CM:BO came out I was talking to my bartender about it and he asked me to burn him a copy. I refused and bought one for him instead. I think I purchased 6 copies of CM:BO for myself and various people that I wanted to have the game. It felt a lot better to give BTS that money than it would have felt to keep the money and burn copies for those folks.....a lot better.

[gunnergoz]

A bartender who asks you to "burn him a copy of CM" is probably watering your scotch. Alot.

[Cribtop Gamer]

To reply to the post from Battlefront.com, I totally agree - your cost structure is RADICALLY different than the normal situation, and in the case of BTS the publisher doesn't view you as a peon.

I'll admit my guess of 100K was pulled out of thin air, almost. I based it on numerous articles from "traditional" gaming media that talked about the game as a "surprise hit." I figured they wouldn't have been impressed with less than six figures, but since that's my only evidence it's pretty thin.

The point is - you guys are smart to stay away from the traditional method, as it allows you to make a better game and make more per unit sold, even if you know you'll never sell as many units as the latest crap on the shelves down at the local computer store.

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

Cribtop,

Interesting post. But really now, if we sold 100,000 units (direct) do you really think I would be sitting around here talking with you peons?

Seriously, there is something you missed in your calcs... we get 100% of the take less expenses. In a retail deal we would get 20% if we were a) lucky and really lucky By lucky I mean that we weren't dicked around with by the Publisher. Generally when they get through with things 20% goes down to something like 15-17%.

If they pay, they pay quarterly at best. And of course they offset returns and expenses before cutting a check. So you can sit there for 3 months waiting for money only to find out "sorry, we got x number of returns, but only y sales. Therefore, no money this quarter". Kinda hard to run a business when you have daily expenses but have no idea when, if, or how much money is coming your way.

Oh, I could go on but I won't The average developer's life is a really hard one. It is why nearly all go out of business even IF they make it to a successful product launch. And since those companies are but a fraction of the ones who start the process of making a game, the survival rate is really poor. Even "hit" companies like Atomic Games eventually get killed off by this vicious cycle. Sooner or later even a good company hits a bad product cycle and it is difficult to survive it when you have employees and overhead that still need to be paid.

Going direct eliminates these problems, but of course introduces a few more. However, for us it has worked out well in terms of stability and survivability. We might not be stinking rich, but we don't worry about staying in business on a daily basis like most developers do!

(as an aside, our deal with CDV is not counted on to keep basic overhead paid. When money comes in from them, and it does as well as on TIME, it just makes things better. If a quarter goes by without a check, no big deal from a survivability standpoint).

Steve

[Red Devils]

Originally posted by Elvis:

tomw makes an excellent point. Not long after CM:BO came out I was talking to my bartender about it...

You have your own bartender!? You capitalist pig!