The Tiger..Pointless to produce??

[KG ThorsHammer]

Just thought I would discuss something with the armour buffs, which also ties in with a CMBB question (Game is on its way:) ). Now I love the mystique of the Tiger, but personally I think producing only the Panther would probably made more sense. Contrary to belief, the Panthers gun actually had a better anti armour performance, although the tigers gun was better at soft targets with its HE rounds. The Panther also had approximately the same protection in the front,maybe even better with it being sloped, but the Tiger did have much better side armour, and the Tigers armour was always kept at a very high standard. Lastly, the Panther was lighter and faster, having the same engine. When you compare them, they seem to balance each other out with their different strengths and weaknesses, but there is one more point;

Men working the same hours could produce 2 Panthers for the cost of 1 Tiger. That to me makes it a no brainer. Instead of lets say 80 Tigers a month, the factory was producing 160 Panthers in addition to existing production of Panthers.....

Still, when the Tiger came out, the Panther was still aways from being available in decent numbers, so I think it would have been worthwhile to produce for a time. My question to CMBB owners is "do you think the Tiger is more historically accurate in CMBO, in terms of protection and effectiveness?"

[Gaylord Focker]

The Tiger in CMBO is a kitten.

The Tiger is more historicly accurate in CMBB, since it models optics wich were a huge plus for the Tiger. Plus the re-enforced front turret as well is modeled.

Armor as a whole is modeled more historicly in CMBB then CMBO.

[ December 19, 2002, 12:16 PM: Message edited by: Gaylord Focker ]

[Kingfish]

Originally posted by Gaylord Focker:

The Tiger in CMBO is a kitten.

The Tiger is more historicly accurate in CMBB, since it models optics wich were a huge plus for the Tiger. Plus the re-enforced front turret as well is modeled.

Armor as a whole is modeled more historicly in CMBB then CMBO.

A good reason for the success of the Tiger in CMBB (or lack of in CMBO) is the kind of oppostion it met in each theater.

At the time it was introduced there were few Allied tanks able to take it out. By the time of CMBO the shock of the Tiger had already worn off, and the allies were fielding the 17 pdr and 76mm w/ 'T' rounds in decent numbers.

[Hunted]

I have been thinking about this point of late and pondering the great "what if". Germany in fact, in 1945 planned on funneling its tank production in to only two categories the first was to be small tank hunters of which the Hetzer was to be a focus and the other area was to be the medium tank namely the Panther. They were going to slow and drop production of the heavy tanks. This strategy would have enormously successful, if they had implemented it earlier but as it was they made the decision after the war was effectively over.

The reasons that this program could not be implemented in mid to late 43 would have been Hitlers desire and love of the big Tanks and the fact that he was still aware enough to dictate policy. And the Hetzer which was an extremely cheap and effective tank destroyer was still on Romanian designers boards as the Marsal.

It makes me wonder what would have happened if during the destruction of Army Group Center the Russians had come across a 1000 Hetzers. With the economy of production on this AFV it would have been as common as borscht on the Eastern Front

[jgdpzr]

First off, welcome to the board, KG Thorshammer. Your points about the Tiger and the Panther are quite valid, the Panther was in most regards the superior vehicle. One of the most important reasons Tiger production continued was manufacturing inertia. In other words, the Henschel works were set up to build them. Re-tooling them was a considerable endeavor and would basically mean idle production facilities for a period of time. As it was, the facilities were eventually transitioned over to produce Henschel's next big contract: the panzer VIB. I don't believe there was ever consideration given to shift Henschel's facilities over to the Panther although I suppose you could argue that the Germans' plans to make as many parts of the KingTiger and the Panther line (Panther II) interchangeable were heading in that direction. This same situation applies to why the Panzer IIIs(at least the lower hulls and chasis') and IVs remained in production for as long as they did. The Panther was essentially designed as the replacement for the Panzer IV, but the compartmentalized German manufacturing base could not just instantaneously shift gears and start cranking out one vehicle, the Panther.

Edited to add: The Panther's frontal hull armour was fairly significantly better than the Tiger's. Also, it wasn't just the case that when the Tiger came out the Panther wasn't available in numbers, it wasn't available at all. The first production Tigers rolled out in July '42, while the first production Panthers came out in January '43. However, it took almost six more months before it would be produced (and teethed) in sufficient numbers to support Citadelle, playing a role in why that operation was postponed as long as it was. The teething process was obviously too short, as the broken down Panthers between the railhead and the battlefield at Kursk attests.

[ December 19, 2002, 01:11 PM: Message edited by: jgdpzr ]

[MikeyD]

I seem to recall the Tiger I almost got the Panther gun but development had not progressed quickly enough to include the gun in production.

Panther was very much a result of experiences making the Tiger. It's got the same engine, I believe the same torsion bar suspension, same turret traverse, same transmission(?). Panther was basically German industry saying "Oh my God, we've GOT to make these thinfgs easier to produce!"

Tiger I production ended long before the war ended and focus shifted to Panther and Tiger II (and of course good-old PzIV workhorse).

[Gaylord Focker]

Originally posted by Kingfish:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Gaylord Focker:

The Tiger in CMBO is a kitten.

The Tiger is more historicly accurate in CMBB, since it models optics wich were a huge plus for the Tiger. Plus the re-enforced front turret as well is modeled.

Armor as a whole is modeled more historicly in CMBB then CMBO.

A good reason for the success of the Tiger in CMBB (or lack of in CMBO) is the kind of oppostion it met in each theater.

At the time it was introduced there were few Allied tanks able to take it out. By the time of CMBO the shock of the Tiger had already worn off, and the allies were fielding the 17 pdr and 76mm w/ 'T' rounds in decent numbers.</font>

[Jack Carr]

All you have to read is Gaylord's response. Right on the money!

As for German tank production favoring one over another? As most of you probably already know, the Tiger was introduced in 1942 in North Africa. Panther was introduced in summer of 43 at Kursk. Panther was a logical answer to T-34. It was arguably the best tank that was produced in WWII after it got over its early model teething troubles. The Germans considered Panther a medium tank and Tiger a heavy. I think the Allies considered both to be in the heavy category. I think at one point the Germans considered making a direct copy of T-34 but decided against it due to the possibility of mistaken identity issues.

[Panzer Leader]

Technically I believe the Tiger was first used in combat near Leningrad. Of course, that might have been the VK4501 prototype. It was also used by Manstein's force in the South in the early part of '43, before Africa I believe?

[MrSpkr]

Originally posted by Hunted:

It makes me wonder what would have happened if during the destruction of Army Group Center the Russians had come across a 1000 Hetzers. With the economy of production on this AFV it would have been as common as borscht on the Eastern Front

That sounds like a good scenario. I'm going home right now to gin it up.

Steve

[Tigrii]

Originally posted by Jack Carr:

All you have to read is Gaylord's response. Right on the money!

As for German tank production favoring one over another? As most of you probably already know, the Tiger was introduced in 1942 in North Africa. Panther was introduced in summer of 43 at Kursk. Panther was a logical answer to T-34. It was arguably the best tank that was produced in WWII after it got over its early model teething troubles. The Germans considered Panther a medium tank and Tiger a heavy. I think the Allies considered both to be in the heavy category. I think at one point the Germans considered making a direct copy of T-34 but decided against it due to the possibility of mistaken identity issues.

And they might have infringed on the T-34's patenting!

[Olle Petersson]

Originally posted by Jack Carr:

... a direct copy of T-34 but decided against it due to the possibility of mistaken identity issues.

The story I've read say they actually did extensive trials (during the winter '42-'42(?)) with the T-34 and found too many flaws with the design to make it worth a straight copy.

The flaws weren't mentioned straight up, but I'd guess they include;

- Two man turret.

- Lack of proper radio.

- Uncomfortable for the crew.

- Gun only "adequate" by late '42, and in need of upgrade (implying the need of a new, larger, turret).

Cheers

Olle

[Bastables]

I think you’ll find that the Panther followed a completely different development path than the Tiger. This development path is tracked through the competing VK.20 designs of a PIII/PIV replacement in 1938 through a competition between

Daimler-Benz and Krupp. Daimler-Benz and Krupp based on their own design experiences and preferences ignored Wa Pruef 6 continued calls to design a chassis with interleaved torsion bar suspensions. You see Wa Pruef 6 was headed by Ernest Kniepkamp who designed the successful Half tracks with interleaved suspension and was adamant that “the heaviest fire power coupled with the highest cross country speeds and the best possible armour protection” were part of all of his design specifications

Wa Pruef 6 therefore had these basic characteristics shared by all their tank designs

-Large road wheels usually without return rollers

-Torsion bar suspension

-The latest motor design, packing increased HP in the smallest space(Which is why the diesel engine always came out a loser to proven Maybach “small” high HP petrol engines).

-Power assisted semi-automatic transmission

-Advanced steering gear design

The Tiger on the other hand had its specification controlled by the same people that had been in charge of the design of the PI, PII, PIII and PIV, the IN 6 office.

The Tiger actually had its engine replaced with the Panther one in 1944.

Transmissions were dissimilar.

The idea that a T34 copy would lead to mistaken identification on the battlefield was a minor strike against the eventual DB Panther, if at all. At this point, November 1941 MAN had been brought in by Wa Pruef 6 attempt to get somebody designing a chassis with interleaved torsion bar suspension. DB initially won the competition with

backdoor politics in discussions with the then Reich armament minister Dr Todt.

Dr Todt was killed in a plane crash in 1942 and was replaced by Albert Speer. The new Reich Minster while giving a pilimanrey order for the 200 DB T-34/Panthers instituted a Panzerkommission under IN 6 to take another look at the two proposals. The MAN Panther was unanimously chosen because DB turret design was still not evident and had a smaller turret ring by 50mm. The interleaved suspension of the MAN Panther gave a better ride, higher actual cross-country speeds and provided a better gun platform. Hitler endorsed the MAN design and that’s why the MAN Panther defeated the DB T-34/Panther, it was the better AFV.

PIV production was continually interfered with in order to build more StuG’s and PIV/70s. By late 1944 there was only one assembly area building the PIV and that was the Steyr complex in Austria.

The T-34 design patent was still a break through veh in the same manner of the Sherman= armour heavy enough to deflect infantry anti tank guns and speed to exploit the break through. The Panther was designed to kill other tanks first and foremost.

The T-34 itself was designated a “heavy tank” by the Germans in 1941. Enemy desginations are less important than how you use and deploy the weapon.

[ December 19, 2002, 09:44 PM: Message edited by: Bastables ]

[Bastables]

The Tiger due to its thicker side armour was more survivable in antitank gun ambushes and side attacks in general. The Panther due to its thin hull side armour and storage of main gun ammo in armoured bins alongside wall tended to burn when penetrated .

[ December 19, 2002, 10:35 PM: Message edited by: Bastables ]

[PiggDogg]

Hunted,

It makes me wonder what would have happened if during the destruction of Army Group Center the Russians had come across a 1000 Hetzers. With the economy of production on this AFV it would have been as common as borscht on the Eastern Front

With your hypothesis, the destruction of AGC might possibly have been not quite as bad. The war might have lasted a few months longer.

If the Germans were unlucky enough to have lasted long enough, until mid August 1945, they would have won the A-Bomb sweepstakes. :eek: :eek: :eek:

Thus, it is good that they did not build a million (I'm exaggerating) Hetzers & make the war last longer.

Cheers, Richard

[ December 19, 2002, 10:21 PM: Message edited by: PiggDogg ]

[Das Reich]

Originally posted by Hunted:

[QB]I have been thinking about this point of late and pondering the great "what if". Germany in fact, in 1945 planned on funneling its tank production in to only two categories the first was to be small tank hunters of which the Hetzer was to be a focus and the other area was to be the medium tank namely the Panther. They were going to slow and drop production of the heavy tanks. This strategy would have enormously successful, if they had implemented it earlier but as it was they made the decision after the war was effectively over.

That would have meant more targets for Allied war planes.

Germany was doomed because it lost control of the skies.

The reasons that this program could not be implemented in mid to late 43 would have been Hitlers desire and love of the big Tanks and the fact that he was still aware enough to dictate policy. And the Hetzer which was an extremely cheap and effective tank destroyer was still on Romanian designers boards as the Marsal.

It makes me wonder what would have happened if during the destruction of Army Group Center the Russians had come across a 1000 Hetzers. With the economy of production on this AFV it would have been as common as borscht on the Eastern Front

Might have prolonged the war some.

At least until Little Boy was ready to be dropped on Belin.

[Sgt. Steiner]

IMO, the Germans should have continued building the Tiger I. By late '44 they had worked the bugs out of it, and it could still more than hold its own against the Allied tanks, considering its 30 to 1 kill ratio. With the Tiger II, the Tiger teething problems returned all over again. Using the Tiger I engine in the much heavier Tiger II did not help matters any either. It seems to me the Germans would have been much better served with the Henschel factory continuing to pump out the proven Tiger I's..

[Das Reich]

Originally posted by PiggDogg:

If the Germans were unlucky enough to have lasted long enough, until mid August 1945, they would have won the A-Bomb sweepstakes.

you beat me to it!

[Bastables]

Originally posted by PiggDogg:

Hunted,

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />It makes me wonder what would have happened if during the destruction of Army Group Center the Russians had come across a 1000 Hetzers. With the economy of production on this AFV it would have been as common as borscht on the Eastern Front

With your hypothesis, the destruction of AGC might possibly have been not quite as bad. The war might have lasted a few months longer.

</font>

[Warmaker]

Good Lord, those are some crazy casualty figures!

As for standardization between the panzer designs, this site talks briefly about the E-series of panzers.

Technical Virtue: Prototypes and Adv. Designs of the Wehrmacht 1939-45: E-Series Panzers

[Bastables]

Originally posted by Warmaker:

Good Lord, those are some crazy casualty figures!

As for standardization between the panzer designs, this site talks briefly about the E-series of panzers.

Technical Virtue: Prototypes and Adv. Designs of the Wehrmacht 1939-45: E-Series Panzers

It still makes the same mistakes of the "T-34 would have been better" argument. Even bringing up the old saw of inability of building aluminium engines when the first run of MAN Panthers was deployed to Kursk sporting the aluminium engine, which was later switched with a identical iron cast engine block with 50 extra HP for D2, A and G Panthers.

Production time of the DB Panther was 1063 working hours. The MAN 1078.5 working hours. Wa Pruef 6 judged the difference negligible.

German estimates retold by Spielberger 'According to rough estimates the labour hour relation in comparison to the Panzer III stood at approximately 1 to 1.25 hrs i.e. 4 Panther for 5 Panzer III tanks to be built. Cost (without weaponry) PzKpfw III RM 96,100; Panther RM 117,100. (1993 Spielberger p23).

As I've said before even a cursory examination of Panther reliability versus PIV will have both at equal operational rates from 1944 onwards. The Tiger actully has a superior operational rates than both mediums.

[ December 20, 2002, 12:21 AM: Message edited by: Bastables ]

[NebelRugen]

tigers hummmmmm.... well my grand father was in a tiger when they came out he said the early ones had horrable transmission problems and the would stop to a horrable grinding halt. but for saying the panther was equal he said it was but it wasn't. like someone said before, later the panther came out. but he said the panther was better at flushing out the ambushers and the tiger was there to take out the bloody sneeky commies. but the russian Stalin tank 1,2,&3 was what finnaly got them and the absint of the luffwaffa. ps my grand father died 6 years ago and was aworded the 1 class iron cross his stories still intrest me and keep up with the games.

[Leit]

Producing Panthers was a big mistake. Combination Tiger I with PzIV may make much more problems for Allies.

[Andreas]

Another thing is that the Tiger appeared almost a year before the Panther (August 42, near Mga, AG North). It was then fielded in AG South (actually A & B and or Don - I can't keep track) AO, and Africa. I would assume that by mid/end-43 reliability was quite high, and production went smoothly, so to then rip it all out and start something new seems a bit crazy.

[Headshot]

"The first time the Tiger saw action was on Aug 29th 1942 and Sept 21/22 at Mga,southeast of Leningrad"--www.achtungpanzer.com