what exactly knocks out a tank?

[brummbar]

This will seem a terribly ignorant question to some, but on the other hand maybe it's too easy to think some things are obvious and that we know what's going on.

So, my scenario is this: an enemy shell has hit your tank, penetrated the armour and its comparatively small amount of explosive has blown up in the confined interior (I think that's waht happens). The tank does not itself explode or catch fire, though the gun droops, and the crew bale out, all, or all but one, alive, and the tank is designated 'knocked out'. A common event in CM.

My question is this: what exactly has happened inside the tank that renders it out of use at least for the time being? The crew may be afraid, shocked, wounded or (I imagine)temporarily deaf, but leaving those factors ruthlessly aside for now, what else is to stop them getting back in and, at the very least, driving off the battlefield in armour-protected comfort? Also, why does the gun droop?

As they say, it's not asking that's stupid, rather than not knowing, or words to that effect!

[MrSpkr]

Originally posted by brummbar:

This will seem a terribly ignorant question to some, but on the other hand maybe it's too easy to think some things are obvious and that we know what's going on.

So, my scenario is this: an enemy shell has hit your tank, penetrated the armour and its comparatively small amount of explosive has blown up in the confined interior (I think that's waht happens). The tank does not itself explode or catch fire, though the gun droops, and the crew bale out, all, or all but one, alive, and the tank is designated 'knocked out'. A common event in CM.

My question is this: what exactly has happened inside the tank that renders it out of use at least for the time being? The crew may be afraid, shocked, wounded or (I imagine)temporarily deaf, but leaving those factors ruthlessly aside for now, what else is to stop them getting back in and, at the very least, driving off the battlefield in armour-protected comfort? Also, why does the gun droop?

As they say, it's not asking that's stupid, rather than not knowing, or words to that effect!

It could be any number of things, including the crew casualties you mentioned. The shell might have continued on into the engine compartment; it might have started a small internal fire; it might have damaged the driver's equipment; any number of things.

It is also useful to keep in mind the narrow time frame CMBO encompasses. If the crew saw their tank had been penetrated once (possibly killing or wounding a crew member), they might well be reluctant to get back in the tank. After all, the next shell could explode inside and kill them all. Given that at typical QB is over in half an hour, it might be that the crew needs more time to 'get it together' enough to think about getting back in any tank, let alone the damaged one.

I think the gun droop is more of a game mechanism to helppeople who don't play with bases on to tell which vehicles or guns are knocked out. IIRC, many of the pictures I have seen of KO'd tanks did not display the gun droop from CMBO.

At least, that's MHO.

[ March 21, 2002, 10:43 AM: Message edited by: MrSpkr ]

[Thomm]

Originally posted by brummbar:

Also, why does the gun droop?

Ha! The "always wanted to know but never dared to ask" question!

I will give it a shot: lack of hydraulic pressure and/or electricity combined with unability to kick in a manual backup system?!

[Leeo]

How about wanting to get the hell out of a large metal box full of fuel and ammunition that has just had a large hole put through it (and perhaps a crew member)? "Hm, I smell petrol, and there's all those HE shells, and it's a bit smokey in there, but what the hey! Let's jump back in!"

Immolation and/or becoming aerosolized goo isn't conducive to high moral, I'd say.

[jgdpzr]

In CM, a "knocked out" tank is one that has had fairly severe damage. This damage could be anything ranging from a destroyed transmission, a heavily damaged engine, to seriously mangled internal crew-compartment systems. Fires are obvious culprits as well. In CM terms, a knock out may or may not result in a catastrophic explosion. Keep in mind, this is an abastraction. Yes, sometimes tanks would immediately brew-up. Other times, small fires may result from the penetration and these would slowly build until an explosion was imminent. This latter case is not represented in CM. The tank either explodes when hit or it doesn't. But the small fires will often lead the crew to abandon and then the cook-off will destroy the tank.

The other type of situation is an abandonment. This, too, can come from many different types of penetrations (or may not even require a penetration). There could be a crew casualty that caused the rest of the crew to panic and bolt. Further, non-lethal hits may confuse the crew, leading them to think they have been seriously hit when they haven't. Examples of this are cases of crews abandoning their tanks when they have been hit with smoke rounds--the smoke fooled them into thinking the tank was on fire. Also, a HE round may sufficiently rattle the crew to convince it to abandond. And of course, minor penetrations that have done little damage may also convince the crew to bolt. This type of damage may be easily repairable so the vehicle can be recovered.

Finally, another thing to consider is the type of round doing the damage. HEAT rounds are nasty because they inject a nasty hot jet of gases into the crew compartment. Naturally, this is not good for the survivability of the crew. Other types of rounds may have different effects. British AP was solid shot, no burster cap. Others used bursting caps. The solid shot would rely purely on kinetic energy, but the bouncing around inside of a crew compartment was also detrimintal to the health of the crew, to put it mildly.

OK, I've rambled enough.

[Guest PondScum]

The typical scenario is:

1. Solid AP shell penetrates armor of tank.

2. Shell continues on its trajectory (possibly modified by the initial impact), ploughing through relatively soft crew members, equipment, etc. Bear in mind that it's also hot at this point (from converting all that kinetic energy into physical displacement of armor), so if it hits anything flammable, you're in trouble.

3. Shell hits something that it can't penetrate - probably the armor on the other side of the tank.

4. If the angles and energy are right, the shell may continue ricocheting - so go back to 2.

5. Phew! You're a crew member, you didn't get hit by the initial impact, or any spray of incandescent metal droplets from it, or any ricochets, you didn't lose your mind when your best mate Charlie next to you suddenly had an 88mm hole appear in his chest, and the shell didn't ignite any fires OR knock out any critical equipment along the way. You still have a functioning tank to fight with!

6. But you have to ask yourself just one question. Whatever just hit you can load another shell within, say, 10 seconds, and have a good chance of hitting you again. A VERY good chance if neither you nor it were moving. So, the question is... do you feel lucky?

[Croda]

Very large sleeping pills.

Hey, Murdock, you know B.A. ain't gettin' on that plane. I pity the fool who tries to..zzzzzzzzzzzz

[The_Capt]

Well first of all a tank is a pretty complex piece of machinery and can be difficult to keep operating under normal conditions.

Let alone when someone goes and throws big pieces of hot metal thru them.

I think being Knocked Out, represent the moment at which the crew can no longer, thru pers or eqpt losses, effectively use the vehicle as intended. The crew normally exits the veh at this point to avoid becoming dead.

As to the drooping barrel (notice how I avoid the easy genital joke here. Someone please tell my parole board.) Well I think it is an emotional reation by the tank. It's crew has run away and all it's other tank friends have driven on to keep fightin. The KO'd tank feels alone and deserted. Not to mention probably feeling a fair amount of guilt. I am sure the tank asks itself "What did I do wrong" and "What could I have done better". I think the long term emotional injury to KO'd tanks is poorly documented and little understood. These proud vehicles carry our boys into battle but when rendered useless we abandon them to their own inner demons.

I for one am starting a fund for the psycological treatment of Vet tanks. Which is currently funded by no governments worldwide. I would ask you all to donate generously towards this good cause. To avoid administration charges which would simply take critical care from our aging armour, I would ask you simply email me your credit card info or I will forward an address which you can send your bank card and pin number. All donations are tax deductible in the Republic of Bermuda.

I thank you all in advance, let's not let out brave tanks rust on the inside too. Let's ensure they get the benifit of modern psychological care. They are not to blame. They gave when we asked, now can we do the same for them?

"NOTE the above diatribe was for entertainment purposes only. For the real deal please send more money to the Capt's Psychic Hotline, where for a small fee I will tell you where that arty is going to land and whether or not you should take on Swamp in your first PBEM."

[Redwolf]

The first thing to note is the difference between "abanded" and "knocked out". The former means that the crew leaves the tank like if infantry breaks. Only the second one means that the tank is actually damaged enough to be rendered useless.

The chance of abandonation is much less for high-quality crews, a veteran crew makes a big difference.

As for damaging the tank in real life: first, most AP shots do not have an additional small HE chanrge to explode inside the tank. It lowers penetration capability compared to a similar solid shell by quite a margin, like 10 or 15%. And the solid shot does enough damage inside the tank, where the hydraulic system, the humans and the ammunition are most volatile when hitting the crew compartment. The hydraulic system seem to be a pretty common cause of damage that disables the tank until repair, because hot liquid spraying all over the tank, possibly burning is very unpleasent and usually you need whatever was driven by the hydraulic system. CMBO models hits to the gun seperately, as is a hit into the drivers compartment, making in immobile.

Having said all that, it occurs to me that CMBO doesn't do a very good job on the knockout or abandonation on penetration by small, low-energy rounds. The chance seems to be equal no matter what penetrates the tank. I don't say 20mm shots are harmless, and for sure they can bounce around in the tank, but there are some very clear cases of a lower knockout chance, like when a small round penetrated almost to its maximum pentration capability and doesn't have enough energy left when entering the compartment. Also there are some AFVs that have large area of surface where a penetration is almost certainly harmless, like the side of a halftrack APC. On the other hand, a long 88 round hitting the center of anything less than a heavy tank should do enough damage by the shock alone, except for very thin vehicles hit at harmless points. But a Stuart hit by a hit will absord enough energy to disrupt the whole vehicle with nearly 100% certaincy.

[Gen-x87H]

As to the drooping barrel (notice how I avoid the easy genital joke here. Someone please tell my parole board.) Well I think it is an emotional reation by the tank. It's crew has run away and all it's other tank friends have driven on to keep fightin. The KO'd tank feels alone and deserted. Not to mention probably feeling a fair amount of guilt. I am sure the tank asks itself "What did I do wrong" and "What could I have done better". I think the long term emotional injury to KO'd tanks is poorly documented and little understood. These proud vehicles carry our boys into battle but when rendered useless we abandon them to their own inner demons."

ROTFLMAO!

Gen

[Silvio Manuel]

Originally posted by The_Capt:

I for one am starting a fund for the psycological treatment of Vet tanks. Which is currently funded by no governments worldwide. I would ask you all to donate generously towards this good cause. ..."NOTE the above diatribe was for entertainment purposes only. For the real deal please send more money to the Capt's Psychic Hotline, where for a small fee I will tell you where that arty is going to land and whether or not you should take on Swamp in your first PBEM."

"Fell off the wagon" early today, did we? Cheers!

[Paul T. Gardner]

Hehe, Capt - I laughed pretty hard at your remarks too. Don't think your off-the-wall posts go unnoticed. I don't see too many people reply to them, and frankly, I don't think many people are unhinged enough to but I laugh nonetheless...

redwolf - some good points there. If you'll excuse me, I was particularly amused by you usage of "abandonation". I was wondering if that was a bit like damnation? It reminded me of Abbadon the Despoiler (WH40K anyone?) but that's another story.

BTW, I think the word you're after is 'abandonment' though I'm no wordsmith either...

Like I said, good points though - no offence intended.

Rgds

[JasonC]

Also worth mentioning are firepower kills, as when the penetrating shot or secondary fragments have destroyed the gunsight, damaged or jammed the breechblock, unseated the gun itself, destroyed the recoil mechanism, or the like. Any of the above will put the gun out of action, and often a crew without a working main armament will bail out.

Similarly, engine damage - or drive train and transmission damage - may immobilize the tank, and the crew may leave a vehicle that is under fire, being penetrated, and can't get away. Occasionally a round might do both things. But morale failure on the part of the crew, or fire, are probably the leading causes of failure of all systems at once.

[flamingknives]

Oh no, don't cross WH40k with CM, you know what'll happen.

1. Weapons ranges will drop to grenade range. Grenade range will drop to spitting distance

2. SS Panzergrenediers will turn into Space Marines and kill everything, despite standing on a wall

3. Your most combat effective unit will be your command unit, which, through upgrades, will become immune to tank shells.

4. deployment zones will be 20mm apart (yes I do mean milli- )

5. King Tigers will be able to hide behind infantry

6. Most battles will be decided by hand to hand combat

7. Every mod that comes out will make the subject the hardest thing on the field, until the next mod

I could go on, but choose not to

[Paul T. Gardner]

Flamingknives - hehe, you got it my friend. I thought I was the only one who thought that stuff!!

That's why I play Epic 40K - a real mans game. Epic was designed before they cut the guts out of 40K to make the prime gaming age about 14. Good marketing strategy doing that though. Just not great for gaming... not like CM is anyway. Epic is much more like CM for the tabletop. Sort of.

Are there anymore Games Workshop fans on the Forum that you know of?

[MikeyD]

You can get simple 'penetrations' in the game but they're really rare.

Let me think. What can cause a 'knock-out'...

The front-mounted transmission wrecked

The gunner's sight destroyed

Turret hydraulics punctured

Concussion effect on the crew

turret ring jammed

fuel tank penetrated

engine penetrated

stowed ammo penetrated

spall from armor interior wrecking equipment

driver's controls wrecked

crew decapitated by shell tumbling around turret

internal smoke/fire

etc.

etc.

etc.

That's why sometimes everyobdy bails out, sometimes only a couple survive, sometimes the whole thing just goes BOOM!

[flamingknives]

Paul, you'll notice by my rather high membership number that I'm fairly new round here. Can't say I've spotted anyone displaying a tendency to spend all their money on toy soldiers in here though.

[sturner]

Having to rely on those soft squishy thingies usually causes a feeling of abandonment to the tank. They have little staying power, need lots of help. Most tankers will prefer to leave what they think might become a coffin, or a toaster. Very dedicated, very veteran crews will continue to fight on. See discriptions of some of the tank crews in the Yom Kippur war. A few tank crews fought their tanks even after several hits form tank rounds or SS-11 rockets.

If you only had Boleros (Continental Siege Units of at least Mark IV). Those will keep on fighting until you drain the hydraulic fluid and disconnect the power source.

[Kanonier Reichmann]

Originally posted by MikeyD:

You can get simple 'penetrations' in the game but they're really rare.

Let me think. What can cause a 'knock-out'...

The front-mounted transmission wrecked

The gunner's sight destroyed

Turret hydraulics punctured

Concussion effect on the crew

turret ring jammed

fuel tank penetrated

engine penetrated

stowed ammo penetrated

spall from armor interior wrecking equipment

driver's controls wrecked

crew decapitated by shell tumbling around turret

internal smoke/fire

Now this post reminded me of that Avalon Hill classic wargame Richtofens War, with its various (somewhat random) critical hit choices, any of which usually spelt impending doom to the stricken plane.

Regards

Jim R.

[History Buff]

Originally posted by Paul T. Gardner:

Flamingknives - hehe, you got it my friend. I thought I was the only one who thought that stuff!!

That's why I play Epic 40K - a real mans game. Epic was designed before they cut the guts out of 40K to make the prime gaming age about 14. Good marketing strategy doing that though. Just not great for gaming... not like CM is anyway. Epic is much more like CM for the tabletop. Sort of.

Are there anymore Games Workshop fans on the Forum that you know of?

You reading the post of a 40k player right here. Come on it's still a good game.

For knocked out tanks, well lets thank BTS for not doing tank battles simply as armour values like Games Workshop

[flamingknives]

History Buff, I'd like to see you run CM armour pen algorithms using a half dozen D6's and a reference table.

Excellent sig btw, one I'd not heard

[Puff the Magic Dragon]

What happens when armor is penetrated?

AP-shells (a) hits on the armor with very high power, penetrates and (depending of the type of AP ammo) maybe a small charge explodes. This sounds not very spectacularly. If you want to know how it feels inside of a tank, try this: take a .460 Weatherby Magnum, go into a very small room and shot with the gun, the muzzle close to your ear. Now you understand what is meant with 'the crew is a bit deaf'. Additional of course the damgage by fragmentation etc.

HEAT-shells © penetrates the armor (in very simple words) with a lance of extreme heat. The penetration is relativ small, the effect in the tank is extreme heat that can ignite everything that can burn: cloth, ammo, human flesh etc. The crew isn't amused. AFAIK (I can be wrong here) is the death rate much higher by HEAT penetrations then by AP penetrations.

[Bastables]

Germans and USA/French used AP Shells (Small HE content)

British/Can/Pols Used AP Shot (Solid shot) to the extent that USA manufactured shells given to the British had their HE content removed and filled in.

Heat rounds require more hits and perforation to achieve a kill than AP Shells. AP shells can achieve a partial penetration and still achieve a kill due to shrapnel caused by the explosion of the HE charge. The HEAT rounds suffer the same problem as AP Shot, smaller deadly shrapnal flying around within the veh along a relatively linier path. Think cone of death verse sphere of death.

British research groups during the Africa campaigns found that German AP shells invariably caused multiple crew casualties and a higher incidence of brew ups when exploding within the veh, something the AP shot could only achieve verse brittle Italian armour with the added lethality of hunks of Italian armour breaking off and adding to the carnage.

This has been discussed before.

[ March 24, 2002, 06:51 PM: Message edited by: Bastables ]