CMBB Question about that "Death Clock" ??

[aka_tom_w]

from Kumps web page:

Death Clock at the Outpost Preview of CMBB

"Death Clock for Tanks

This was my favorite change.  I kept seeing tanks getting the detail penetration reports, but tanks would continue to fire on the same target.  Details on penetration would continue for a random amount of time.  What is going on is the tanks now have 'death clocks'.  If the tank did not brew up, the TacAI has no idea if the tank is truly out of commission or not.  It will see it as a threat and continue shooting.  Eventually, the tank crew will vacate the tank and it will be a known kill, but until that happens, you are going to waste some ammo!  I loved it!  Of course, I cursed when low ammo loads were quickly used up.  A welcome change!"

I think it is a GREAT idea and the execution sounds wonderful in the beta version (or so it would seem from the above opinion).

My question is why is called the Death Clock?

What is it timing?

It would seem that it is appropriate for the Tac AI to continue to target and fire until either the crew bails or the AFV brews up. OK. But what does the clock or timer have to do with it?

maybe its just the name "Death Clock" that I don't get :confused:

Is there a speficied time after which the firing on a non responsive target stops? (maybe that would make sense if the target is impenetrable and it has an inoperable (dead) main weapon, e.g. Stuart firing on JagTiger with gun out).

Anyway I TOTALLY welcome the concept, just curious about the name that is now used to refer to it?

thanks

-tom w

[ July 17, 2002, 09:12 PM: Message edited by: aka_tom_w ]

[Doug Beman]

It's timing how long it takes for the dead vehicle's crew to get out of the wreckage, thereby making clear that the tank is a complete kill.

Death Clock is just a cool name to denote "the time it takes for the vehicle's destruction to be confirmed."

DjB

[Louie the Toad]

Dear aka Tom

I am not quite clear about the reporting of the armor hits you describe. But it seems to me that taking into account the position of the shooter, who can only see the reactions of the enemy, one would want to keep firing until a definite 'dead' result was observed.

Anything else that the AI might tell you would be violating the fog of war and IMHO should be shut off.

Knowing that there was a Shocked, Crew Death, Gun Damage, and even Immobilization is info the shooter should not get from the AI. Albeit the shooter may be able to see the track slide off of the enemy tank, or the enemy get holed. But even then a penetration doesnt = a kill . So a holed tank would remain a mystery until fired or moved or the crew bailed.

Now it would be cool if the AI indicated engine damage with smoke coming out of the enemy tank. And if you saw the enemy tank slew to the side and lose a track that would be a great sight. And what if the shooter could see the penetration hole of a non exploding hit. All of these things would add to the richness of the game. But to let the AI tell you things you are not able to see, well that gets the "G" word.

"What you see is what you get" -- Flip Wilson Toad

[aka_tom_w]

Originally posted by Louie the Toad:

Dear aka Tom

I am not quite clear about the reporting of the armor hits you describe. But it seems to me that taking into account the position of the shooter, who can only see the reactions of the enemy, one would want to keep firing until a definite 'dead' result was observed.

Anything else that the AI might tell you would be violating the fog of war and IMHO should be shut off.

Knowing that there was a Shocked, Crew Death, Gun Damage, and even Immobilization is info the shooter should not get from the AI. Albeit the shooter may be able to see the track slide off of the enemy tank, or the enemy get holed. But even then a penetration doesnt = a kill . So a holed tank would remain a mystery until fired or moved or the crew bailed.

Now it would be cool if the AI indicated engine damage with smoke coming out of the enemy tank. And if you saw the enemy tank slew to the side and lose a track that would be a great sight. And what if the shooter could see the penetration hole of a non exploding hit. All of these things would add to the richness of the game. But to let the AI tell you things you are not able to see, well that gets the "G" word.

"What you see is what you get" -- Flip Wilson Toad

I agree I agree

I think it is great

I was just asking why it was called "Death Clock"?

this sounds about right:

"It's timing how long it takes for the dead vehicle's crew to get out of the wreckage, thereby making clear that the tank is a complete kill.

Death Clock is just a cool name to denote "the time it takes for the vehicle's destruction to be confirmed.""

its Sounds great I am most definitely in Favour of MORE Fog of War .

thanks

-tom w

[YankeeDog]

Hopefully, BFC is on the ball (as they usually are), and "detailed armor hits" is NOT an available option when playing CMBB on the "Extreme FOW" setting. All they would then need to do is delay the display of the "flaccid main gun" graphic until after the "Death Watch" was over, and I'd be pretty happy.

Of course, tracks flying off the idlers, a belch of oil smoke from the engine, and tanks slewing around violently when the wheels on one side get hit while the tank is on the move and other graphical goodies like that would be great eye candy, but not necessary IMHO.

I'm also hoping that the "Death Watch" modeling is good enough that when a target "Brews up", the Tank/Gun will immediately stop shooting at it - occasionally, it's very obvious when a tank is taken out of action by a shot. Jets of flame and smoke coming out of holes in the hull would certainly be one of those occasions. My guess is that BFC has already figured this out, tho.

Cheers,

YD

[Pak40]

Will distance to the target be a factor in the "Death Clock" or determining if the vehicle is dead?

It would seem that closer ranges make it easier to determine if the tank is knocked out even if the crew has not bailed yet. In fact, there will be many obvious close range knock-outs where your tanker should be able to fire-and-forget. For instance, we all know that a Sherman will penetrate a MKIV at point blank range. But if that MKIV doesn't "brew up", do we still have to wait for the crew to bail??? :confused:

[kump]

aka_tom_w ,

The term "Death Clock" was something jwxspoon used to explain why tanks were still firing on penetrated targets, or those knocked out. Its a good term because in two words, I assumed the operation meant that there is a random amount of time from tank out of commission to time the crew vacates. And until the crew vacated, the target was still considered a threat. This is also similar to how Jeff described it.

Sometimes the crew vacated very quickly, other times I saw many hits on the same tank, even though I knew it was knocked out (wasn't firing back, moving, etc). Well, maybe not "knew", but pretty confident. Which penetration hit actually took out the tank? --shrug--

You would still get the occasional exploding tank, and the TacAI would immediately stop firing on it. All in all, a welcome change. Just make sure you bring along a few extra rounds of ammo.

[ July 17, 2002, 12:49 PM: Message edited by: kump ]

[aka_tom_w]

Originally posted by kump:

aka_tom_w ,

The term "Death Clock" was something jwxspoon used to explain why tanks were still firing on penetrated targets, or those knocked out. Its a good term because in two words, I assumed the operation meant that there is a random amount of time from tank out of commission to time the crew vacates. And until the crew vacated, the target was still considered a threat. This is also similar to how Jeff described it.

Sometimes the crew vacated very quickly, other times I saw many hits on the same tank, even though I knew it was knocked out (wasn't firing back, moving, etc). Well, maybe not "knew", but pretty confident. Which penetration hit actually took out the tank? --shrug--

You would still get the occasional exploding tank, and the TacAI would immediately stop firing on it. All in all, a welcome change. Just make sure you bring along a few extra rounds of ammo.

GREAT

Thanks for the clarification!

That sounds very realistic.

-tom w

[Madmatt]

Actually, the origins of the Death Clock are much different. In reality, during a company get together (the one and only!) we were batting around ideas on various "cool stuff" we wanted to put into CMBB. At that point the code was still pretty much alpha and time was still our friend (as opposed to the dark depressing engulfing hand of doom it now is!).

As the beer and libations and game suggestions flowed freely about the table I mentioned to Charles that I thought it would be cool if there could be some more randomness in the time it took for crews to bail out. In CMBO IIRC its usally about instant.

We had earlier discussed that it would be cool if the TacAI could occasionally pump additional rounds into vehicles to simulate the "fire until it burns" mentality of tank gunners. At that time though no suitable solution to this could be thought up.

As soon as I mentioned my idea for crews bailing out I literally saw a light turn on in Charles's eyes. Then again he might have just burped. Anyway, he started talking quickly in that geeky programmer way and said that what he could do was code up a "Death Clock" (his exact words as witnessed by the entire Battlefront.com team) which would in effect 'delay' the bailing out of the crew. Until the Death Clock expired (ran out) the code would not tell the TacAi or the player that the unit was dead. In effect it was a timer (clock) to hold back that info.

As long as the TacAi thought the unit was still alive it would continue to engage. And thats what now happens.

So, how is the length of the Death Clock determined? I do not know all the factors that Charles accounts for but I do know that the:

* Range to Target

* Amount of the Penetration of Target

* Size of shell (big booms are easy to tell)

* Damage to the crew inflicted

* Type and sevirity of the Damage inflicted to the vehicle

are all applied and modified to a base amount of time, which I would imagine is based on some random amount, again modified by still more factors. Of course certain types of attacks (close assualts) and damage (Brewups and some extereme penetrations) are known at once.

So how long can a Death Clock last? I have seen it when it was instaneous, meaning I knew at once I killed a enemy target and other times it has lasted thoughout a whole turn and even beyond. It really depends on a host of factors.

Can a player tell if a unit is dead when the TacAI doesnt know?

Now since we always like to reward observant players, a good player who *really* pays attention to their targets when hit might notice that an enemy unit has stopped all movement and *appears* dead. When the orders phse comes along and the Death Clock has not expired they could of course retarget somewhere else. But beware! We now model tank moral and crew panic so what you THOUGHT was a dead tank could just be a tank that is recovering its senses and still be very much alive.

I have even had this occur to me, recently. I think I hit a KV-1 in the turret and achieved a penetration. The hit occured late in the turn and my TacAI controlled unit pumped an additional round into it for good measure as the turn ended. I was pretty confident that the KV was toast. During the orders phase the TacAI still had the KV targeted, but I was pretty sure it was just a "death clock thing" so I retargeted him somewhere else.

The next turn started and after about 15 seconds the KV roared to live and backed off out of sight of my stupified unit quickly. Well, I guess it was I that was stupified.

Although not mentioned much yet (cuz it envolves all sorts of geeky math stuff) the entire internal damage system has been greatly enhanced. Due to the help of some experts in the feild of High Explosives and Metalurgy (I think thats right) Charles now accounts for not just the size and severity of an armor penetration but also how much internal armor is pushed into the interior of the vehicle, how much spalling there is, the size of the spall fragments, their effect on the crew, the likelyhood of certain armor plates to spall or shatter internally, the size of the AP bursting charge (assuming it has one) and the chance it might not function properly on penetrations which don't make it cleanly through. All that plus much much more!

Yeah it sounds very cool and it is, just not when brainy geeks start talking about co-effecients of velocity*mass of spall fragments/density of human flesh etc... Don't ask me for any more details on any of the above cause I don't know and the only guy that does is Charles and he is too busy to post.

The whole ballistics system and penetration calculations are far more enhanced due to the help of several experts in these fields. Their research, knowledge and assistance is evident at every level of CMBB.

Guys, you are gonna love it!!!

Sorry to get off track there, I just get excited talking about all this!

Madmatt

[ July 17, 2002, 01:54 PM: Message edited by: Madmatt ]

[kump]

Thanks Madmatt for the further clarification and the "Death Clock" origin.

Like I said, it was one of those things that really put a smile on my face, as so many other things I saw in CMBB. The game will just blow people's socks off.

[YankeeDog]

Wow!! That's really cool!!

Just bumping this because people seem to be missing this great bit of info from the mad one.

[BFCElvis]

Great post tom. I was wondering the same thing and we got a killer post from Matt out of it.

[aka_tom_w]

Originally posted by Madmatt:

Actually, the origins of the Death Clock are much different. In reality, during a company get together (the one and only!) we were batting around ideas on various "cool stuff" we wanted to put into CMBB. At that point the code was still pretty much alpha and time was still our friend (as opposed to the dark depressing engulfing hand of doom it now is!).

As the beer and libations and game suggestions flowed freely about the table I mentioned to Charles that I thought it would be cool if there could be some more randomness in the time it took for crews to bail out. In CMBO IIRC its usally about instant.

We had earlier discussed that it would be cool if the TacAI could occasionally pump additional rounds into vehicles to simulate the "fire until it burns" mentality of tank gunners. At that time though no suitable solution to this could be thought up.

As soon as I mentioned my idea for crews bailing out I literally saw a light turn on in Charles's eyes. Then again he might have just burped. Anyway, he started talking quickly in that geeky programmer way and said that what he could do was code up a "Death Clock" (his exact words as witnessed by the entire Battlefront.com team) which would in effect 'delay' the bailing out of the crew. Until the Death Clock expired (ran out) the code would not tell the TacAi or the player that the unit was dead. In effect it was a timer (clock) to hold back that info.

As long as the TacAi thought the unit was still alive it would continue to engage. And thats what now happens.

So, how is the length of the Death Clock determined? I do not know all the factors that Charles accounts for but I do know that the:

* Range to Target

* Amount of the Penetration of Target

* Size of shell (big booms are easy to tell)

* Damage to the crew inflicted

* Type and sevirity of the Damage inflicted to the vehicle

are all applied and modified to a base amount of time, which I would imagine is based on some random amount, again modified by still more factors. Of course certain types of attacks (close assualts) and damage (Brewups and some extereme penetrations) are known at once.

So how long can a Death Clock last? I have seen it when it was instaneous, meaning I knew at once I killed a enemy target and other times it has lasted thoughout a whole turn and even beyond. It really depends on a host of factors.

Can a player tell if a unit is dead when the TacAI doesnt know?

Now since we always like to reward observant players, a good player who *really* pays attention to their targets when hit might notice that an enemy unit has stopped all movement and *appears* dead. When the orders phse comes along and the Death Clock has not expired they could of course retarget somewhere else. But beware! We now model tank moral and crew panic so what you THOUGHT was a dead tank could just be a tank that is recovering its senses and still be very much alive.

I have even had this occur to me, recently. I think I hit a KV-1 in the turret and achieved a penetration. The hit occured late in the turn and my TacAI controlled unit pumped an additional round into it for good measure as the turn ended. I was pretty confident that the KV was toast. During the orders phase the TacAI still had the KV targeted, but I was pretty sure it was just a "death clock thing" so I retargeted him somewhere else.

The next turn started and after about 15 seconds the KV roared to live and backed off out of sight of my stupified unit quickly. Well, I guess it was I that was stupified.

Although not mentioned much yet (cuz it envolves all sorts of geeky math stuff) the entire internal damage system has been greatly enhanced. Due to the help of some experts in the feild of High Explosives and Metalurgy (I think thats right) Charles now accounts for not just the size and severity of an armor penetration but also how much internal armor is pushed into the interior of the vehicle, how much spalling there is, the size of the spall fragments, their effect on the crew, the likelyhood of certain armor plates to spall or shatter internally, the size of the AP bursting charge (assuming it has one) and the chance it might not function properly on penetrations which don't make it cleanly through. All that plus much much more!

Yeah it sounds very cool and it is, just not when brainy geeks start talking about co-effecients of velocity*mass of spall fragments/density of human flesh etc... Don't ask me for any more details on any of the above cause I don't know and the only guy that does is Charles and he is too busy to post.

The whole ballistics system and penetration calculations are far more enhanced due to the help of several experts in these fields. Their research, knowledge and assistance is evident at every level of CMBB.

Guys, you are gonna love it!!!

Sorry to get off track there, I just get excited talking about all this!

Madmatt

WOW!!

I mean Wow that is cool!

Thanks Matt for taking the time to post that detailed answer.

that post should go directly in the CMBB FAQ.

that Post should be repurposed for Advertising and Promotion purposes!

that was one helluva post to describe what will be a VERY cool feature in CMBB

I now understand the inner workings of the "Death Clock" to my satisfaction and then some!

thanks again!

Too Cool for Words!

-tom w

[Andrew H.]

Originally posted by Madmatt:

Although not mentioned much yet (cuz it envolves all sorts of geeky math stuff) the entire internal damage system has been greatly enhanced. Due to the help of some experts in the feild of High Explosives and Metalurgy (I think thats right) Charles now accounts for not just the size and severity of an armor penetration but also how much internal armor is pushed into the interior of the vehicle, how much spalling there is, the size of the spall fragments, their effect on the crew, the likelyhood of certain armor plates to spall or shatter internally, the size of the AP bursting charge (assuming it has one) and the chance it might not function properly on penetrations which don't make it cleanly through. All that plus much much more!

Madmatt

I can't wait for the detailed hits:

Internal damage: spalling. Driver hit in right leg by 30 gram metallic fragment @ 1500 deg. C. Right leg broken. Right femoral artery lacerated. Laceration partially cauterized by hot fragment.

Radio operator observes wound. Radio operator accesses first aid kit. Radio operator applies direct pressure. Bleeding stopped. Radio operator applies sulfa. Radio operator applies two gauze pads and 2 ' of adhesive tape. Driver stabilized. Remaining first aid supplies: 2 units of sulfa, 3 gauze pads, 10' of adhesive tape.

Tank mobility impaired due to driver leg injury. Temporary C&C penalty due to radio operator distraction.

[MrSpkr]

Originally posted by Madmatt:

In CMBO IIRC its usally about instant.

Won't it be nice when we have ALL been playing CMBB long enough to have fuzzy memories of CMBO?

Steve

[Louie the Toad]

I LOVE IT !!!!

TOAD

[dalem]

Originally posted by MrSpkr:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Madmatt:

In CMBO IIRC its usally about instant.

Won't it be nice when we have ALL been playing CMBB long enough to have fuzzy memories of CMBO?

Steve</font>

[aka_tom_w]

Originally posted by Andrew Hedges:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Madmatt:

Although not mentioned much yet (cuz it envolves all sorts of geeky math stuff) the entire internal damage system has been greatly enhanced. Due to the help of some experts in the feild of High Explosives and Metalurgy (I think thats right) Charles now accounts for not just the size and severity of an armor penetration but also how much internal armor is pushed into the interior of the vehicle, how much spalling there is, the size of the spall fragments, their effect on the crew, the likelyhood of certain armor plates to spall or shatter internally, the size of the AP bursting charge (assuming it has one) and the chance it might not function properly on penetrations which don't make it cleanly through. All that plus much much more!

Madmatt

I can't wait for the detailed hits:

Internal damage: spalling. Driver hit in right leg by 30 gram metallic fragment @ 1500 deg. C. Right leg broken. Right femoral artery lacerated. Laceration partially cauterized by hot fragment.

Radio operator observes wound. Radio operator accesses first aid kit. Radio operator applies direct pressure. Bleeding stopped. Radio operator applies sulfa. Radio operator applies two gauze pads and 2 ' of adhesive tape. Driver stabilized. Remaining first aid supplies: 2 units of sulfa, 3 gauze pads, 10' of adhesive tape.

Tank mobility impaired due to driver leg injury. Temporary C&C penalty due to radio operator distraction.

</font>

[MrSpkr]

Originally posted by dalem:

Won't it be nice when people like you won't forget to send turns to people like me?

-dale

And won't it be nice when people like me who post things on the MBT about computer problems don't have to deal with annoying posts from people like you?

Not that I would expeect much more from you Michi-Minnesotan pants-wetter types.

Steve

[Fionn]

No, what is REALLY cool is when you manage to back the 2nd ( insert Soviet tank type here) away from Bil's anti=tank infantry ambush because the death clock on the first (insert BIG Soviet tank type name here)'s death clock hasn't fully run down so even though YOU know the crew is bailing out Bil is still sweating the retreat of that tank AND ends up targetting all his fire on it... even though you know it is already dead. Sure, it is tough on the 3 surviving crew but at least it lets you save the remaining (insert name of T-10 predecessor here) and bring it back into action to repel his Tigers and Panthers.

FWIW this is one reason you guys will appreciate the BIG Soviet guns mounted on their tank-killers in the 1944 to 45 period. When those babies hit there's rarely much of a death clock since they are SO huge and powerful that a kill is evident really quickly.

Hell, I even killed a Tiger I yesterday with a PARTIAL penetration from a 122mm gun. The entire tank brewed up in an instant once hit.

[Conscript Bagger]

This sounds like a fantastic addition. I wonder how it is affected by borgspotting, though? If I target an enemy Tiger with a T-34 at 100m and a SU-152 at 600m, is there a different Death Clock for each of my AFVs? Or does the SU get the same (presumably shorter due to range) countdown as the T-34?

I'm guessing the latter, but hoping for the former.

[Pak40]

Charles now accounts for not just the size and severity of an armor penetration but also how much internal armor is pushed into the interior of the vehicle, how much spalling there is, the size of the spall fragments, their effect on the crew, the likelyhood of certain armor plates to spall or shatter internally, the size of the AP bursting charge (assuming it has one) and the chance it might not function properly on penetrations which don't make it cleanly through. All that plus much much more!

So, does this mean that it will be harder for a 20mm to take out tanks? It doesn't seem likely that a 20mm could easily disable a Priest by penetrating the upper hull from the front. The 20mm would be ablt to kill the machine gunner through the upper hull, but to consistantly destroy Priests with a first shot kill seems a little unlikely.

[imported_argie]

Originally posted by Offwhite:

stuff

Nice sig

[MrSpkr]

Originally posted by Pak40:

So, does this mean that it will be harder for a 20mm to take out tanks?

I hope so. I might actually get some use out of the buggers.

Steve

[Zitadelle]

Originally posted by Fionn:

[qb]No, what is REALLY cool is when you manage to back the 2nd ( insert Soviet tank type here) away from Bil's anti=tank infantry ambush because the death clock on the first (insert BIG Soviet tank type name here)'s death clock hasn't fully run down so even though YOU know the crew is bailing out Bil is still sweating the retreat of that tank AND ends up targetting all his fire on it... even though you know it is already dead. Sure, it is tough on the 3 surviving crew but at least it lets you save the remaining (insert name of T-10 predecessor here) and bring it back into action to repel his Tigers and Panthers....

qb]

Ok, Fionn may just be pulling our legs, but did everyone get his ever so subtle hint about one of the tanks included in CMBB. Predecessor of the T-10; that could possibly be the immediate predecessor which would be the (drumroll please):

Joseph Stalin JS-3! :eek:

Of course, the JS-2 was a predecessor as well, but perhaps....

[ July 17, 2002, 05:02 PM: Message edited by: Zitadelle ]