CMBB Question about that "Death Clock" ??

[Auggy]

I have a question.....since there is this death clock now *will* a tank after seeing a hit change his target even though the supposoedly hit tank is still alive? If this happens as his slow turret swings around the hit crew gets their act together and shoots back and KO's the tank that had already hit them? :confused:

[Stalin's Organ]

I second what Fionn says about big guns - the 150mm IG in a game I played had NO trouble knowing when it KO'd tanks!!

but I can't say any more or I'd have to kill you all and I'm not allowed to do that these days!!

[aka_tom_w]

Originally posted by Sir Augustus:

I have a question.....since there is this death clock now *will* a tank after seeing a hit change his target even though the supposoedly hit tank is still alive? If this happens as his slow turret swings around the hit crew gets their act together and shoots back and KO's the tank that had already hit them? :confused:

Perhaps you should re-read Matt's post more closely....

"Can a player tell if a unit is dead when the TacAI doesnt know?

Now since we always like to reward observant players, a good player who *really*

pays attention to their targets when hit might notice that an enemy unit has

stopped all movement and *appears* dead. When the orders phse comes along and

the Death Clock has not expired they could of course retarget somewhere else. But

beware! We now model tank moral and crew panic so what you THOUGHT was a

dead tank could just be a tank that is recovering its senses and still be very much

alive.

I have even had this occur to me, recently. I think I hit a KV-1 in the turret and

achieved a penetration. The hit occured late in the turn and my TacAI controlled

unit pumped an additional round into it for good measure as the turn ended. I was

pretty confident that the KV was toast. During the orders phase the TacAI still had

the KV targeted, but I was pretty sure it was just a "death clock thing" so I

retargeted him somewhere else.

The next turn started and after about 15 seconds the KV roared to live and backed

off out of sight of my stupified unit quickly. Well, I guess it was I that was stupified."

is that what you are asking?

-tom w

[Conscript Bagger]

Originally posted by argie:

Nice sig

Heh heh, thanks for providing the material - I about peed myself when you wrote it!

[Auggy]

I was thinking if the AI during the action phase would be stupid/smart enough to do this.

[Fionn]

There was no such tank as the JS-3... or JS-2 for that matter . ( Now let's see who figures that out that statement correctly first. ).

As to tank behaviour. Well, I'll say this... Until you see an enemy tank blow up OR its crew bail out you need to keep firing at it. That is the way things often happened in real life ( fire until bail out or brew up). The AI seems to follow much the same logic. IOW I haven't seen any nutty switching from target to target etc cause of the death clock. It all is implemented quite nicely.

[Andreas]

Originally posted by Fionn:

It all is implemented quite nicely.

Indeed.

[Conscript Bagger]

I'm guessing he meant IS-3.

Do I win the Rice-A-Roni?

[Fionn]

You win 10 grog points for correctly id'ing the name of the series of tanks which led to the T10. Iosef Stalin ( Joseph is an English translation and not the Soviet spelling.)

[Zitadelle]

Originally posted by Fionn:

[QB]There was no such tank as the JS-3... or JS-2 for that matter . ( Now let's see who figures that out that statement correctly first. ).

QB]

Typo, my bad....

[aka_tom_w]

Originally posted by Fionn:

There was no such tank as the JS-3... or JS-2 for that matter . ( Now let's see who figures that out that statement correctly first. ).

As to tank behaviour. Well, I'll say this... Until you see an enemy tank blow up OR its crew bail out you need to keep firing at it. That is the way things often happened in real life ( fire until bail out or brew up). The AI seems to follow much the same logic. IOW I haven't seen any nutty switching from target to target etc cause of the death clock. It all is implemented quite nicely.

"The AI seems to follow much the same logic. IOW I haven't seen any nutty switching from target to target etc cause of the death clock. It all is implemented quite nicely"

Thats GREAT news.

Nice to hear Andreas' endoresment as well!

Thanks!

-tom w

[Doug Beman]

Originally posted by Sir Augustus:

I have a question.....since there is this death clock now *will* a tank after seeing a hit change his target even though the supposoedly hit tank is still alive? If this happens as his slow turret swings around the hit crew gets their act together and shoots back and KO's the tank that had already hit them? :confused:

Sir A, if your tank scores a killing shot on a target but the death clock indicates that "the enemy crew hasn't bailed out yet," then your tank will continue to believe that the dead tank rget is still alive. This will neither raise nor lower the threat that the tank represents IN THE EYES OF YOUR TANK'S TACAI, so if no worthy targets are to hand, your tank will continue shooting at the dead tank. If another target presents itself before the "death clock" on the dead tank runs out (meaning the crew bails and confirms the tank's death) then your tank's TacAI will do the normal "does the new target present a greater threat/better target than what I've been shooting at?" If answer is YES, then your tank will switch targets off the dead tank (while still thinking it's alive). If answer is NO, then your tank continues shooting at the dead tank.

Geddit?

DjB

[JMcGuire]

Originally posted by Offwhite:

This sounds like a fantastic addition. I wonder how it is affected by borgspotting, though? If I target an enemy Tiger with a T-34 at 100m and a SU-152 at 600m, is there a different Death Clock for each of my AFVs? Or does the SU get the same (presumably shorter due to range) countdown as the T-34?

I'm guessing the latter, but hoping for the former.

I agree, the latter seems most likely. It depends on how carefully Madmatt was watching what he writes (knowing this group as sticklers for details) but he did say "Until the Death Clock expired (ran out) the code would not tell the TacAi or the player that the unit was dead. In effect it was a timer (clock) to hold back that info." and "As long as the TacAi thought the unit was still alive it would continue to engage."

Those both appear to indicate communication between the "results" engine and the TacBorg, versus the engine and individual units.

It's a great question though, it would be nice to know for sure.

[Madmatt]

The range modifier on the death clock is based on the range of the shot, not the range to the nearest spotting unit. It actually has nothing to do with Borg spotting at all.

This was done because early on we saw tank penetrations at close range yet the Death Clock was still keeping the TacAI from knowing that the enemy unit was KO'd. In reality it would be easier for them to determine this up close. Now, by and large the death clock delay is shorter the closer the range.

Madmatt

[ July 17, 2002, 09:05 PM: Message edited by: Madmatt ]

[aka_tom_w]

Originally posted by Madmatt:

The range modifier on the death clock is based on the range of the shot, not the range to the nearest spotting unit. It actually has nothing to do with Borg spotting at all.

This was done because early on we saw tank penetrations at close range yet the Death Clock was still keeping the TacAI from knowing that the enemy unit was KO'd. In reality it would be easier for them to determine this up close. Now, by and large the death clock delay is shorter the closer the range.

Madmatt

Hi Matt,

Thanks so much for all your detailed and informative posts.

That Death Clock is a Thing of Beauty!

Thanks for sharing your insights and knowledge into its inner workings

-tom w

[ July 17, 2002, 09:09 PM: Message edited by: aka_tom_w ]

[BeauCoupDinkyDau]

Originally posted by Doug Beman:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Sir Augustus:

I have a question.....since there is this death clock now *will* a tank after seeing a hit change his target even though the supposoedly hit tank is still alive? If this happens as his slow turret swings around the hit crew gets their act together and shoots back and KO's the tank that had already hit them? :confused:

Sir A, if your tank scores a killing shot on a target but the death clock indicates that "the enemy crew hasn't bailed out yet," then your tank will continue to believe that the dead tank rget is still alive. This will neither raise nor lower the threat that the tank represents IN THE EYES OF YOUR TANK'S TACAI, so if no worthy targets are to hand, your tank will continue shooting at the dead tank. If another target presents itself before the "death clock" on the dead tank runs out (meaning the crew bails and confirms the tank's death) then your tank's TacAI will do the normal "does the new target present a greater threat/better target than what I've been shooting at?" If answer is YES, then your tank will switch targets off the dead tank (while still thinking it's alive). If answer is NO, then your tank continues shooting at the dead tank.

Geddit?

DjB</font>

[Kwazydog]

Vader, generally it can happen as you describe. The Tac AI is pretty smart is working out when a tank is *probably* dead though, and if he sees an enemy tank that is definately alive and a threat, he will often engage it and leave the other tank alone.

Of course, if he is buttoned and doesnt have a cupola, chances are that he wont spot it before it gets off the first shot....something else to remember with those early war T-34's

Dan

[ParaBellum]

Hm, I am sensing a disturbance in the force...

First a new bone, then Madmatt giving us detailed info about the "death clock" and the improved sounds, now even Kwazy has time for a reply.

Scary!

[Barrold]

I didn't know what it was called when I saw it, but it sure adds to the suspense created by the extreme FOW.

Thanks for filling in the details on an excellent new feature. It works very well in practice.

BDH

[Thomm]

Originally posted by KwazyDog:

Of course, if he is buttoned and doesnt have a cupola, chances are that he wont spot it before it gets off the first shot....something else to remember with those early war T-34's

Doesn't this sound like relative spotting being implemented for tanks?!

[JMcGuire]

Originally posted by Madmatt:

The range modifier on the death clock is based on the range of the shot, not the range to the nearest spotting unit. It actually has nothing to do with Borg spotting at all.

Ok, so now we have Borg spotting and Borg evaluation. If I understand you correctly, Tank A blows up Tank X but due to the Death Clock, may not know that for quite some time. Meanwhile Tank B rolls into the picture at only half the range. Because of the Death Clock, Tank B now begins shooting Tank X, too, even though it might be close enough to properly identify the tank as dead?

Indeed, even if the crew bails, how does another tank know a simply-abandoned tank is dead?

Don't get me wrong, the Death Clock is great, the "instant knowledge" thing always bugged me, too, but I think the Borg Mind does play tricks with this feature, too...

[Kwazydog]

Tanks can still be knocked out directly by a large enough hit, and crews wont hang around long if many large shells are coming through their dead vehicles. Bottom line is that the above isnt a problem.

Guys, I think it best to see the feature in action before trying to find problems with it...I have played with it in game for many months and have yet to see a problem with it, nor have we have anything but good reports back from the beta testers.

Dan

[ July 18, 2002, 08:21 AM: Message edited by: KwazyDog ]

[aka_tom_w]

Originally posted by KwazyDog:

Tanks can still be knocked out directly by a large enough hit, and crews wont hang around long if many large shells are coming through their dead vehicles. Bottom line is that the above isnt a problem.

Guys, I think it best to see the feature in action before trying to find problems with it...I have played with it in game for many months and have yet to see a problem with it, nor have we have anything but good reports back from the beta testers.

Dan

Thanks Dan!

your ringing endorsement along with that of Matt and Andreas can only be a GOOD thing, I'm sure you folks have worked the bugs out of that Death Clock by now .

What a GREAT feature, combined with Extreme FOW the game should be a REAL thrill to play!

-tom w