Will the manual for CMBB be better than for CMBO?

[kipanderson]

Hi,

I came to CMBO with no computer games experience. i.e. I came to it cold, computer games wise. However, with just a very brief reading of the odd “how to” section and I was away. The manual told me all I needed to know.

I am puzzled by criticism of the manual.

All the best,

Kip.

[Wilhammer]

Moon,

Maybe you should have an essay writing contest.

Who can describe the Russo-German War in 1500 words or less?

Describe the evolution of tactics in the Soviet Army of WW2 in 1000 words or less, focusing on the develpement of improved communications and tactical prowess.

Winner gets to see his/her work in the CMBB manual.

[Agua]

Well, personally, I believe the prose itself is well-written, I would like to see more tables to include basic stuff like concealment / cover / firepower and the effect upon each by leaders with various bonuses. There are FP tables, in game, for each individual unit, and there are (and I possess) FP tables prepared by Chris Hare (thanks Chris). However, even two years later, there are no concealment tables available (I *did* start testing for such a table but the undertaking was so huge, I put it down). This is the type of thing that a wargamer is pretty much accustomed to having However, I realize that this is just the type of info BTS purposely does not provide so as to keep CM from becoming a "play by the numbers" game as Steve says. BTS' approach does have merit as it requires the player to develop feel for the game.

[Gpig]

I thought the manual was great. Even the first version. Answered all my questions. Got me into the game quickly. No problems, really.

Gpig

[aka_tom_w]

Originally posted by Moon:

Hi guys, interesting thread, especially for me, as Steve and I wrote the CMBO manual - and we intend to do the same for CMBB

Points about the CMBO manual noted - both good and bad. Not much we can do about that obviously (unless we do a major reprint of CMBO sometime).

The problem with game manuals, as opposed to writing books for example, is that the timing of the manual must coincide with the release of the game. That means that large sections of the manual are actually written during development, otherwise, although the game is finished, it couldn't ship until the manual was done. Not sure how many people here would want to wait for 2 months until the manual is finished?

In the case of CMBO, which introduced rather significant changes in later patches, the manual has been updated, but this can lead to various "ptoblems", the index being one of the most significant one. But enough looking back.

For CMBB, the situation is slightly different, because the basic game code is written AND we have the experience of this very board to improve on areas that have been lacking. The CMBB manual will also be somewhat differently structured (including a section especially for folks familiar with CMBO to quickly come up to speed on the most important changes).

However, many requests from further up in this thread simply cannot make it in. It's easy to say "add a few pages describing units". CMBO will feature something like 1000 different units! Even if we were to list their names, that is 1000 lines of text, or - based on a standard 30 line page - 33,3 pages!

And a brief historical outline? Well, we're covering 5 war years! Such an outline will either be totally useless for those more knowledgeable as it will be not detailed enough, or it will be totally useless for those less knowledgeable, because it will not be detailed enough - if you know what I mean

One of the restricting things in manuals is the cost. It's fairly cheap to reproduce a CD, but printing a manual costs serious cash. If we were to add a hundred pages of units, 40 pages of historical outlines, the game would cost around $100. Now some folks here might be willing to spend that, but most wouldn't.

In short - CMBB's manual has the same objective as CMBO's had. Show people how to play the game, give a few hints, maybe even a couple of tactical lessons, and explain the most important game mechanics. It simply cannot do much more than that. Even with game mechanics - you have to remember that the game is NOT build on to-hit tables, cover modifiers and the like. It's much less rigid than that, and short of writing down the actual game code (which won't happen), there are limitations as to what and how some things can be explained.

Having said all that - depending on the space we'll have on the CD and other variables I don't want to mention right now, we might be able to provide some more info this time around, being it through PDF materials on the CD or otherwise. It's simply not decided yet.

I do hope, however, that from this lenghty post you can see that we're actually giving this a lot of thoughts. As players, we value a comprehensive and printed manual ourselves, so we want to deliver that as best as possible.

Martin

Thanks for the update

I thought the manual was well written, but I would consider it, (from a functional perspective) just "adequate". As mentioned in this thread I did try to look up things like Bogging and Road blocks and why tanks don't block LOF or LOS. Sure there were things missing. Oh Well

The cost of printing IS expensive and the manual from the original CMBO was better than most game manuals. I'm sure the CMBB manual will be better but I don't think it should be all the much more comprehensive than the CMBO manual because I am not interested in paying for the additional cost of a really BIG heavy manual.

If you like Manuals and want to read them PLAY ASL, the WHOLE cost of the damn game is manuals, if you want to play CMBB jut stick the CD in your computer and PLAY AS YOU GO!

Besides how many folks here actually read the manual?

The only REAL reason you need a manual is so that once you have figured out all the intricasies of the game from PLAYING it to death, you can say "RTFM" to all the newbies who ask questions!

(just joking)

-tom w

[ April 10, 2002, 02:58 PM: Message edited by: aka_tom_w ]

[Moon]

Originally posted by Agua:

Well, personally, I believe the prose itself is well-written, I would like to see more tables to include basic stuff like concealment / cover / firepower and the effect upon each by leaders with various bonuses. There are FP tables, in game, for each individual unit, and there are (and I possess) FP tables prepared by Chris Hare (thanks Chris). However, even two years later, there are no concealment tables available (I *did* start testing for such a table but the undertaking was so huge, I put it down). This is the type of thing that a wargamer is pretty much accustomed to having However, I realize that this is just the type of info BTS purposely does not provide so as to keep CM from becoming a "play by the numbers" game as Steve says. BTS' approach does have merit as it requires the player to develop feel for the game.

Hi Agua!

You're right, it was a "design decision" to not give people the ability to play by numbers. But even if we wanted that, the problem is that the "basic stuff" as you call it ("concealment, cover, firepower") are not as straightforward as you might be used to from other games. The FP ratings in the game are mere indicators for the player (as are the exposure ratings and most of the few other abstract "game ratings", for example). Even during the course of one turn, these figures are variable, both by sheer randomness, but also by the various parameters applicable, like the location of firer and target which changes during a turn from one second to another. The algorithms Charles put together are what really makes the game fly, and any "tables" you (or we) might put together are merely tips of the iceberg and in reality not much more useful than somebody telling you "100 FP is better than 50 FP" - exactly what the manual does, in a way.

Maybe I can explain this problem better by a comparison. Has anybody seen the penetration diagrams for CMBO? I believe a sample might still be somewhere on the CMBO product pages. Try putting THIS into a "penetration table". Now multiply by the 1000 or so units in the game... :eek:

[kipanderson]

Moon, hi,

One thing I would add is a recommended reading list. Just to allow those who are not knowledgeable on the Eastern Front, but get hooked by the game, to learn more. You know the sort of thing. All the Glantz books and such.

I would also have a book section on this website with a click through to Amazon. But you will already have thought of that one and rejected it for some reason.

All the best,

Kip.

[Agua]

Originally posted by Moon:

But even if we wanted that, the problem is that the "basic stuff" as you call it ("concealment, cover, firepower") are not as straightforward as you might be used to from other games. The FP ratings in the game are mere indicators for the player (as are the exposure ratings and most of the few other abstract "game ratings", for example). Even during the course of one turn, these figures are variable, both by sheer randomness, but also by the various parameters applicable, like the location of firer and target which changes during a turn from one second to another. The algorithms Charles put together are what really makes the game fly, and any "tables" you (or we) might put together are merely tips of the iceberg and in reality not much more useful than somebody telling you "100 FP is better than 50 FP" - exactly what the manual does, in a way.

Yes, I almost included a comment concerning this as well, as I learned while trying to develop concealment tables, there is a good deal of randomness going on here. It would seem, with concealment anyway, that there is a range of probabilities that are more likely, but not certain, to occur under situations "S Distance", "T Skill", "U Terrain", "V Rate of travel", "W Stealth Bonus", "X Distance from edge of terrain", and other variables that I cannot presently remember/am unaware of. It is almost as if rather than a "table", in the traditional sense, some sort of graphic parabolic representation with gradations of color would be more accurate.

Like I said, I'm not anticipating such graphs to ever be provided.

[Lars]

Moon,

Having been involved in writing several books, numerous catalogs, and piles of technical docs, I thought the manual was very good. Told me what I really needed to know to get started, thick enough not to get lost among the junk on my desk, and far better than the pamphlet most companies send out with their games.

Indexes are always a pain, as no matter what you really want to find, it never seems to be in the index. Or listed where you think it should be. Or listed as what you think it should be. This ain't easy to do, folks, especially on a deadline, and if you think it is, give it a try.

Perhaps some of what people are looking for here could be included as txt documents on the disk but I would just suggest putting it on a webpage for easy updating.

However, do not put the manual on the CD. That bugs the hell out of me.

[Soddball]

I am pro-paper and anti-PDF aswell - although it's not as good for the environment, it's easier to sit down and read it away from the PC - which is what I tend to do.

Maybe the tutorial part of the manual could be removed and you could have an interactive tutorial map which takes the player through the controls, targetting, moving, hull-down, ambushes etc?

[Pvt. Ryan]

Originally posted by Wilhammer:

Who can describe the Russo-German War in 1500 words or less?

Germany invaded the Soviet Union and advanced pretty far. Then it got really cold. Then Germany started retreating until the war ended. Or somefink.

[Wilhammer]

22 words.

LOL

[Moon]

Hey Pvt. Ryan, can I quote you?

Agua, great observations. Can't say more (not that I know much more myself - nobody does except Charles the Brain)

Kip, yep, we'll do our best to provide a good recommended reading list this time around. This was planned for CMBO, but there is so much material for the Western Front, a reading list didn't seem as important in the end. And about that Amazon stuff, yes, thought about it, rejected it and came up with something much better. Soon...

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Soddball:

I am pro-paper and anti-PDF aswell - although it's not as good for the environment, it's easier to sit down and read it away from the PC - which is what I tend to do.

Me too. Here's a solution that might satisfy all parties: A manual on disk that can be edited and printed out. Not as nice as a bound manual, but would save on paper (somewhat) and could be upgraded via downloads from the net.

As for the CM:BO manual, I found it to be considerably above average, and I count myself as a severe critic of such productions. There are omissions and a few mistakes, but mostly I found it to be clear and concise. Whatever questions I had I usually found answers to straight away.

I think the kind of charts and numbers that some people are asking for, along with histories, unit lists, etc. are best left to independent web sites, from which they can be downloaded and printed out. They would be available to those who like to have them, but would not burden the writers of the manual or drive its price upward. This is an important consideration for those players who neither require nor desire that much material, and would like to hold on to as much of their cash as possible.

Michael

[Capitalistdoginchina]

I would like to add that some people (Like me) treasure a very good manual just like i do a good WW2 book or video documentary.

If BTS produce a fine manual it would be something to keep and add to anyones collection. It is important to use good quality paper, usable content, maybe some pictures and have an excellent overall presentation.

However, updating of such a manual is also important and this cannot be done unless it is made available online and available for download. We can then print out our own if we so wish.

If it is done online sections can be added at a later date or existing sections expanded upon - which would be nice, but not essential.

I still have the manual for "Aces of the Pacific" produced by Dynamix (Sierra) in 1989 which i have kept for it's excellent clour pictures and information, not only that, the presentation of the manual was first class.

The original CMBO manual was not a classic by any means, but it was functional and covered everything needed to get started on the game. I read it three times cover to cover.....but alas, I still ask some questions on this forum that were covered in the manual !

Idealy the manual would be sent out with the game, but also have it replicated and available online for updating and expansion as the game progresses and patches are released. It could also be possible that sections are submitted by forum members (ie strategies, unit stats, mod info, tips and hints, FAQ, map making guides etc) for inclusion, just like one person suggested earlier regarding the 1,500 word intro. Eventually it could be built up to be the mother of all game manuals!

BTS will not be able to keep everyone happy though, there will be some that never read the manual anyway :confused:

I am confident though, that whatever they do it will be done properly - and i look forward to read it several times and to reserve a place on my bookshelf

CDIC

[Capitalistdoginchina]

Originally posted by Moon:

And about that Amazon stuff, yes, thought about it, rejected it and came up with something much better. Soon...

OOOOH, that can only mean........BTS are going to setup an online WW2 bookstore :eek: :eek:

Yaaaaay

CDIC

[edward_n_kelly]

A suggestion or two:

Rather than provide a full manual - why not just a printed set-up guide ?

The full manual can be in the form of a PDF file (or files) on the CD ROM - to be printed or not at the discretion of the purchaser.

On the subject on multiple PDF Files - one could be written to cover each of the aspects above - a little history (and a reading list), the full "how to", the unit description tables, etc and also allows it to be printed page by page or complete “book” and in loose leaf format !

Then, depending on the customer's needs/desires, the cost of printing is his/hers - not BTS.

This would allow updated manuals to be prepared and distributed electronically (and with their appropriate indices – the bug bear of “replacement page” scenarios).

(It is becoming more common in the IT areas to use PDF rather than paper for the same reasons -cost, ease of update, ease of distribution, independence from operating system).

Edward

[JonS]

Originally posted by Captitalistdoginchina:

that can only mean........BTS are going to setup an online WW2 bookstore

Good idea - I've spent far more on books in the last couple of years, because of CMBO, than I ever did on CMBO. Doesn't seem right somehow ...

[Wolfpack]

Originally posted by edward_n_kelly:

The full manual can be in the form of a PDF file (or files) on the CD ROM - to be printed or not at the discretion of the purchaser. Edward

Please PLEASE don't put the manual in PDF format on the disk. That is so incredably annoying to me. The last thing I want to do is waste most of a $30-40 inkjet cartridge on a manual. I don't generally read the manual to play the game, but if I have to look something up, I'd rather not have to print the thing, or exit the game to look for it. I like to take the manual to work and read it in my spare time. With a small manual like the CMBO one, that's pretty easy to do. Not so easy when I'm hauling a bunch of standard printer pages around. If you want to toss out additions and changes in PDF, that's fine, but not the whole thing...please?

[ April 10, 2002, 10:13 PM: Message edited by: Wolfpack ]

[JonS]

Originally posted by Wolfpack:

A heartfelt and articulate plea for a real manual

Hear hear!

[Wilhammer]

A priemer wargame company becoming a book seller, what a stroke of genius!

Wouldn't also be nice to buy a book with a wargame in it?

CM:BO bundled with Michael Doubler's "Closing With the Enemy"; a winning combo.

I miss the good old days of getting my copy of SPI's S&T in the mail

[Agua]

Moon,

While I got ya on the horn here, just finished Bucholtz Station. Believe it or not, first time I played that particular .cmb. Great job my man!

[karch]

I work for a software company and understand both sides of the coin. Sometimes I love a printed manual and sometimes I love electronic. When you have multiple apps on a computer, especially a laptop, and need to look something up, it's much easier to open up a PDF file and do a find for a word or phrase than having to carry around the 20 manuals you MAY or may not need.

My favorite way of handling it is a small paper document to get you started and much more detailed info on the disc to view or print. We are actually going to a database help file instead of PDF. This way you can do searches easier and things like that... or only print out chapters or items you are interested in. It ends up being much easier to find information when you can search on it than having to thumb through the book or figure our indexes.

Printing large paper manuals is just too expensive for many companies. You'd be surprised how much time and money it takes... and 90% of people rarely even thumb through it. That's all I've done with the CM manual. If I had a PDF version of it, I'd probably have read it on the train or something.

Just my perspective... I don't think any of the ideas are wrong.. it all seems like personal preference to me.

[Pak40]

Originally posted by Brian:

It appears that not many of you have actually read the manual or more particularly the index. Hands up if you can tell me, from the index where one finds these items:

Roadblocks - effects, removal, etc.;

Smoke Dischargers - how do you use them?

Bogged (the index says to "see Status" where is "Status" in the index?);

Immobile (I suppose I could always look under "Status");

Victory Flags - how to place them on the map;

HQ's - effects on, on-table mortars firing.

OK, grant it; the index is lacking on numerous items, but if you actually read the manual then your concerns are answered somewhere within it. If not there, then you've got an increadible forum where your questions will be answered within 1/2 hour.

Consider this: BTS, when CMBO was produced, was a 2 man operation. That means, 1 man to code and the other to write the manual, to do PR, help with game design decisions and countless of other things required to run a software company. Considering that the manual was written by 1 person and is thicker than most other manuals published by much larger companies, I think Steve did one hell of a job. I'll allow for a few indicies to slip through the cracks.

The bottom line is that there's alwasy room for improvement, and BTS will only get better at everything they do, whether it's game design or writing manuals.

[ April 11, 2002, 08:19 AM: Message edited by: Pak40 ]

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Wolfpack:

The last thing I want to do is waste most of a $30-40 inkjet cartridge on a manual. I don't generally read the manual to play the game, but if I have to look something up, I'd rather not have to print the thing, or exit the game to look for it. I like to take the manual to work and read it in my spare time. With a small manual like the CMBO one, that's pretty easy to do. Not so easy when I'm hauling a bunch of standard printer pages around.

That's why I suggested it be in an editable format, so that you would only print out those sections that you need/want to have in hard copy. You should also be able to resize the page so that you would not be strapped to an 8 1/2X11 format. You could make it digest size if that suited you better. You can have it bound pretty cheaply too.

Michael