Citadel as the Soviets

[V]

Brilliant.

I had allot of fun with this one against the Nazi AI. Of course, you have to set the AT guns up totally different than the scenario default, but it is worth the time, watching the Nazi tanks fall right into the kill zone.

I put all the AT guns in a cicrular position behind the big hill in the middle of themap that the Germans have to crest.

Once they pass it, I open fire from the right, as they turn to engage and destroy the guns over therer, I open up on the left and get allot of flank and rear shots (key to using the 45)

Finish them off with the KV's

Whoever made this scenario, my hats off to ya, I had great fun with it last night.

Posting screnshots soon

[karch]

Great post V. I agree completely. It was the first game I played and was lucky enough to play over IP agains a person. We actually kept the initial placements to see how it played and I was able to get a 75-25 victory as Soviets with the default placements.

[Pvt. Ryan]

Is the default setup at all realistic? Why would the Soviets deploy out in the open when they have some great cover they could use to their advantage? Or is it set up that way to encourage the player to expiriment with different deployments?

[karch]

Originally posted by Pvt. Ryan:

Is the default setup at all realistic? Why would the Soviets deploy out in the open when they have some great cover they could use to their advantage? Or is it set up that way to encourage the player to expiriment with different deployments?

Good question. I don't know. I'd love to play again if someone would like to try and wipe out the Soviets. I want to try a different setup and see what happens. I may get creamed, but it will be fun to experiment. Takers? Email me. scott@karchfamily.com

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Pvt. Ryan:

Is the default setup at all realistic? Why would the Soviets deploy out in the open when they have some great cover they could use to their advantage? Or is it set up that way to encourage the player to expiriment with different deployments?

If you were a German FOO, where would you drop the big ones - on an open field, or on a clump of trees? EDIT - ie the only clump of trees within 1000 metres....

[ September 08, 2002, 12:53 PM: Message edited by: Michael Dorosh ]

[Pvt. Ryan]

There is no German FOO in the scenario, so we will never know. If the Germans did have arty it would be even tougher on the Soviets. But, didn't the Germans have air superiority at that point? Wouldn't the Soviets want to try to hide their meager assets? With the steppe as expansive as it is, why would the Germans expect a defensive stand at that particular spot? I've played a few times as the Germans giving the AI a chance to modify the setup. The AI placed the guns at the back of the map in the trees behind the wheatfield instead of out in the open. Even the AI doesn't have a deathwish. But if you are saying that the Soviets would have actually deployed in the open like that for whatever reason, then I accept that.

[Prinz Eugen]

Originally posted by Pvt. Ryan:

Wouldn't the Soviets want to try to hide their meager assets?

Mind you, this was the battle of Kursk, where the attacking Germans were outnumbered by the defending Soviets, so I'd hardly say they had meager assets...

Yup, the Germans got a licking at Kursk !

[Pvt. Ryan]

I don't know much about battles on the Eastern Front and I definitely have to do some reading. All I can go by is the forces available in the scenario.

I went to Amazon.com to look for some Eastern Front books and someone has put together a list of recommendations. I don't know if any of them are particularly good, but it looks like a good place to start.

[ September 08, 2002, 02:56 PM: Message edited by: Pvt. Ryan ]

[howardb]

I massed all the guns on the slope of the biggest hill and waited until I had flank shots with all the guns on both sides. When the KV's entered the battle was already won.

I tried to set up 3 lines of defenses later and it didn't work as the panzers picked them off one by one. The old German doctrine of letting them having everything in a massive blow worked best (Guderian was it?). Managed to take out two PzkwIII with infantry which was good I think.

[Bruce70]

The only successes I have had have been using a reverse slope defence also.

[GriffinCheng+]

Spoilers:

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I used reverse slope just before the ancient riverbed and got kicked by the AI. I figure out that one of the problem is, after relocating your troops, one has to issue the "dig-in" command or the unit is still relatively easy to spot.

In the thrid trial, I move all my AT assets around the largest flag. When one forward PzIIIM entered the kill zone, it was greeted by at least ten AP rounds from all directions before it is abandoned. Other guarding panzers killed 3 of the PaKs but the Germans become very cautious so I still keep the largest flag. I put 2 KV-1Ss in a very well hidden location and they kill 4 panzers, including a burning PzIVG (late) before they are nailed. I achieve a minor victory this way.

Will try some other tactics.

Griffin.

[K_Tiger]

Originally posted by V:

Brilliant.

I had allot of fun with this one against the Nazi AI. Of course, you have to set the AT guns up totally different than the scenario default, but it is worth the time, watching the Nazi tanks fall right into the kill zone.

Which gremlin gave you milk in your youth-time?? What in .... is a NAZI-AI???

Isnt it possible to left out such political designations?? :mad:

[Abbott]

Originally posted by Pvt. Ryan:

I don't know much about battles on the Eastern Front and I definitely have to do some reading. All I can go by is the forces available in the scenario.

I went to Amazon.com to look for some Eastern Front books and someone has put together a list of recommendations. I don't know if any of them are particularly good, but it looks like a good place to start.

Try here for Info.

[V]

Originally posted by K_Tiger:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by V:

Brilliant.

I had allot of fun with this one against the Nazi AI. Of course, you have to set the AT guns up totally different than the scenario default, but it is worth the time, watching the Nazi tanks fall right into the kill zone.

Which gremlin gave you milk in your youth-time?? What in .... is a NAZI-AI???

Isnt it possible to left out such political designations?? :mad: </font>

[Vergeltungswaffe]

[ September 09, 2002, 11:39 AM: Message edited by: Vergeltungswaffe ]

[gunnergoz]

My tactic here was also reverse slope. I lined up all the AT guns along the west edge with the AT rifles in a line in front of them. I sited the Maxims to get maximum coverage of the kill sack.

When the Huns were 1/2 way through the sack, the closest were almost out, I cut loose, aiming 2 guns each at the closest tanks. Those tanks died in a hurry! By the end of the first minute, 10 tanks were dead!

The other tanks were killed off in the 2nd minute...

When I replayed the scenario a second time, I again killed all the tanks, with the loss of only ONE AT gun.

Goes to show, I think, that the AI has limits. I'm sure that a human player would have been much tougher as the German.

[Commissar]

Originally posted by V:

Brilliant.

I had allot of fun with this one against the Nazi AI. Of course, you have to set the AT guns up totally different than the scenario default, but it is worth the time, watching the Nazi tanks fall right into the kill zone.

Actually, I left the AT guns at their default location and I still beat the snot out of the Germans. I did however, move the KVs to a different location. Close range AT fire and KVs at an enemy's rear can do some pretty bad damage. I then let my maxims take care of those poor bailed-out tank crews who were stranded out in the open. It was a bad day to be German.

[ September 09, 2002, 11:40 AM: Message edited by: Commissar ]

[Gpig]

Don't forget that out in the open steppe, and in a foxhole, there are some advantages. There is some concealment in the steppe, especailly with the NEW feature that comes with CM:BB where units that do not move from their initial set-up spots gain a "camoflauge" (sp?) bonus. They are tougher to spot. Even in the open.

Having played as the Germans AND Russians, I've yet to spot an AT asset BEFORE it opened fire. Even the ones in the "open" steppe. And usually, they still manage to get off many a shot before the tankers can spot them.

This is all with Extreme Fog of War "ON" of course. I highly recommend that setting.

Thanks,

Gpig

[killmore]

I have done similar thing to win the scanario in 1 turn (once I opened fire)

BUT:

I consider my positioning "gamey"!

I knew where the tanks will and that they will go through the center.

Therefore I used edges of the map to kill the AI...

[howardb]

I don't consider it gamey. You're using the map to your benefit to crush the enemy. If you shouldn't be able to use certain areas on the map the mapmaker should make these unaccessable to you.

[Tarquelne]

Originally posted by howardb:

I don't consider it gamey. You're using the map to your benefit to crush the enemy. If you shouldn't be able to use certain areas on the map the mapmaker should make these unaccessable to you.

So that makes it the map maker's fault if someone uses the edges for a "gamey" set up?

Anyway....

Hey, how about that EFOW? After a little experimentation 500-600m seems the best range to open up with the AT guns. Eh? Closer and the tanks see the guns too easily and quickly eliminate them. Farther than 600 and the guns take too long to score hits/kills - the tanks use the extra time to locate the guns.

But that's just against the AI... havn't tried it against a human, or anything close.

[demoss]

For the record, I've managed to spot enemy AT assets before they opened fire (and had it done to me - I think - as well). Heck, I've managed to knock them out before they opened fire OR I spotted them! Area fire is your friend.

It's interesting how this scenario plays out after a few tries - at first, I was having more trouble with the left flank (from the German perspective), but now that I've figured it out I'm having more trouble with the right. Not being able to drive through OR swing left of those trees limits my options dramatically, and I'm not entirely sure what to do about it.

[ September 09, 2002, 06:32 PM: Message edited by: demoss ]

[Guest Mike]

Here's how I do it:

2 AT guns in the wood on the left side of the map right at the front - they are pointing backwards and can see f-all (but more of that later)

4 AT guns in the large rocky areas on the right side of the map - 2 in each, pointing inwards.

4 AT guns on the left side of the map - 2 in the wood, 2 in rocky areas on hte reverse slope.

2 AT guns in their original positions on the Russian side of the old river bed.

ATRs, AT groups and MG's are scattered around in rocky areas & woods on hte middle hill.

When the German tanks move past the first 2 AT guns and into the depression before the first hill those 2 AT guns move out onto a little mound that is jsut behind the wood - you have to get down to view 1 or 2 to see it.

Now ALL the AT guns can see the crest of the hill the Germans must cross over to get to the old river bed.

The MG's and a couple of ATRs open fire a turn or 2 before the Germans get to that crest to button them down.

When the Germans get to the crest (about half on each side so they're all in the kill zone) all of the Russian weapons except the AT teams open fire at once - a zillion hit messages then blank out the screen and make it near impossible to see what's actually happening!! lol

The Germans still usually manage to kill 4-8 AT guns, but usually lose half or more of their tanks all at once and the morale of the remainder is crap!!

Mop up as required.

Oh, and the KV's are normally behind the trees on the left - they're much too fragile and expensive to actually use in a tank duel!!

[Frankly Fritz]

Originally posted by Pvt. Ryan:

But, didn't the Germans have air superiority at that point? Wouldn't the Soviets want to try to hide their meager assets

Someone else already said that at the Battle of Kursk the Germans were outnumbered. The one crappy book I have on WWII (I'll disclose the title when I get home) said that the Germans were able to assemble 900,000 troops and 200 aircraft, I forget how many AFV's. While the Russian had 1,300,000 troops and 1600 or 2400 aircraft. Again I'll clarify once I get home.

[Bruce70]

Originally posted by killmore:

I have done similar thing to win the scanario in 1 turn (once I opened fire)

BUT:

I consider my positioning "gamey"!

I knew where the tanks will and that they will go through the center.

Therefore I used edges of the map to kill the AI...

I also consider overly using the edges gamey (although the trees on the left are obviously meant to be used). Thats why I set up in the centre on the reverse slope - worked just as well anyway.