Ok laugh at me! What are NCO's

[Thermopylae]

NCO's are the ones who kick people's asses into gear and inform the lieutenants that they just thought up a bad idea.

[Kitty]

Why do you guys post the answer to one person's question after it's already been answered in the first reply? =)

[Splinty]

Just to throw one more variation into the mix, in the U.S. military warrant officers are considered "highly trained specialists" (not to be confused with the rank of Specialist). In other words they have more formal training in their respective technical fields than an NCO, but do not fall into the command structure as a comissioned officer would. Therefore they are awarded the rank of Warrant Officer. A good example of how this works are helicopter pilots. Most of the pilots in an aviation company are warrant officers, but the platoons and the company are commanded by comissioned offecers. The techs and the crew cheifs are NCOs and enlisted men and women.

[Wisbech_lad]

SNCO (CSM/ RSM) to junior officers/ officer cadets

"We will both address each other as Sir. The difference is - you will mean it"

[Treeburst155]

I once saluted a Command Sargeant Major. Boy, did he read me the riot act! I was BSing with my buddies, not paying attention, when the battalion CSM walked by dripping with polished brass and medals in his dress greens. His sudden appearance startled me, and I didn't see the stripes, just the medals and brass. I figured it was a field grade officer, and snapped him my best salute. That following Sunday I found myself mopping floors in battalion headquarters.

He was the meanest guy I ever met in the Army, just like you'd see from Hollywood; but had there been bullets flying, he'd have been the guy to have around, even though he was in his 50's.

BTW, he would salute 2nd Lieutenants; but not even Captains tried to tell him what to do. He answered to the Battalion commander only.

[Code13]

Originally posted by Splinty:

Just to throw one more variation into the mix, in the U.S. military warrant officers are considered "highly trained specialists" (not to be confused with the rank of Specialist). In other words they have more formal training in their respective technical fields than an NCO, but do not fall into the command structure as a comissioned officer would. Therefore they are awarded the rank of Warrant Officer. A good example of how this works are helicopter pilots. Most of the pilots in an aviation company are warrant officers, but the platoons and the company are commanded by comissioned offecers. The techs and the crew cheifs are NCOs and enlisted men and women.

This is the same in the British Army as well, especially in specialist regiments such as the Royal Engineers and the REME, the RAF and RN also have specialist ranks for specialist personel

[Joachim]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Michael Emrys:

An example in the German army would have been an Obergefreiter or Feldwebel (I think; there are several grogs who may correct me on this).

If you insist.

Soldiers ranked as Oberschütze, Gefreiter, Obergefreiter or Stabsgefreiter in the German Army were NOT, say again NOT considered non-commissioned officers in any sense of the word. They were considered privates receiving a higher rate of pay. They had no command powers or authority as one found in a British Corporal or an American Corporal.

Most sources translate these German ranks as "lance corporal", "junior corporal" etc. without giving any thought to what the soldiers actually did. A British Corporal led a section of 10 men. In the German Army, that was the job of an Unteroffizier, not a lowly Obergefreiter. </font>

[flamingknives]

A small note on the distinction between commissioned and non-commissioned officers.

AFAIK, this arose in the British army in the Napolionic era or slightly earlier. The point was that a commission was bought, and not cheap either. Therefore military rank corresponded approximately to social rank (read wealth).

The distinction was there to separate the 'Gentry' (Officers) from the common soldiers, who were given command responsibility as they more frequently had respect of the rank and file.

[felixgrey]

Hello all,

About staffs in the US Army this is the way it is layed out.

S-1,2,3,4 -is Brigade and below (S tands for Staff)

next level

G-1,2,3,4 - Is Division and Higher (G stands for General Officer)

J-1,2,3,4 - Is joint level staff usually at Joint command levels - very high up - in command of Army, Air Force, Navy ,and Marines in a certain area.

I am currently an Assistant S-3. So I'm very familiar with the layout. :cool:

Scott

[Florian Gross]

I don't get it!

Originally posted by Treeburst155:

I once saluted a Command Sargeant Major. Boy, did he read me the riot act! I was BSing with my buddies, not paying attention, when the battalion CSM walked by dripping with polished brass and medals in his dress greens. His sudden appearance startled me, and I didn't see the stripes, just the medals and brass. I figured it was a field grade officer, and snapped him my best salute. That following Sunday I found myself mopping floors in battalion headquarters.

BTW, he would salute 2nd Lieutenants; but not even Captains tried to tell him what to do. He answered to the Battalion commander only.

Does this mean you were below his rank. If you were below you should salute, shouldn't you?

I know that 2nd Lieutenants are above as captains are. Do you mean he was an NCO with much experience and respect? Why shouldn't you salute him anyway?

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Joachim:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Michael Emrys:

An example in the German army would have been an Obergefreiter or Feldwebel (I think; there are several grogs who may correct me on this).

If you insist.

Soldiers ranked as Oberschütze, Gefreiter, Obergefreiter or Stabsgefreiter in the German Army were NOT, say again NOT considered non-commissioned officers in any sense of the word. They were considered privates receiving a higher rate of pay. They had no command powers or authority as one found in a British Corporal or an American Corporal.

Most sources translate these German ranks as "lance corporal", "junior corporal" etc. without giving any thought to what the soldiers actually did. A British Corporal led a section of 10 men. In the German Army, that was the job of an Unteroffizier, not a lowly Obergefreiter. </font>

[Sailor Malan]

Originally posted by Florian Gross:

I don't get it!

[snip]Does this mean you were below his rank. If you were below you should salute, shouldn't you?

I know that 2nd Lieutenants are above as captains are. Do you mean he was an NCO with much experience and respect? Why shouldn't you salute him anyway?

I speak for the British army here. When a soldier salutes, he is not saluting the officer, he is saluting the commission (i.e. the fact that the officer is a 'representative' of the monarch). NCO's don't have commissions, and hence don't get salutes - it is a subtle point. The error was a small one, but (in the UK at least), some NCO's see not being saluted (and not being called 'sir') as a badge of honour or respect. They have been in the army for years, and risen by their abilty. They are not some youngster straight out of Sandhurst (officer school).

I have been yelled at in no uncertain terms by a NCO, that he isn't a 'sir' he is a 'Sargeant', and I had better not call him sir again!

[Frenchy]

And if that isn't enough - check out the abbreviations I have gleaned from posted documents on my 70th site:

http://www.trailblazersww2.org/abbreviations.htm

Unit Codes:

http://www.trailblazersww2.org/code_names.htm

As for G and S nomenclature: G1 - 4 were for Division and above, S1 - 4 for regiment and below:

Example here:

http://www.trailblazersww2.org/g2journalFeb12.htm

[gunnergoz]

Originally posted by Kitty:

Why do you guys post the answer to one person's question after it's already been answered in the first reply? =)

Grog reflex, it's called. A chonic, untreateable disorder of the ego. Symptoms include the compulsion to seek out trivial details of utter irrelevance, then to inflict same upon innocent bystanders who had asked for the time. While uncureable, it can be placed into remission by being shamed into silence by an even more obsessive/compulsive grog who has more to say about less and less.

Hope this helps!

[Michael Dorosh]

Saluting the commission seems correct - I was once told (tongue in cheek) that we salute officers "to remind them of their responsiblities."

Not surprisingly, the Germans also did this differently, and NCOs were entitled to salutes from private soldiers, though the exact details and circumstances of this are not known to me.

Salutes fall under the whole heading of "paying compliments." In British and Canadian practice (possibly US as well?) a junior rank is expected to greet a superior when passing them, in addition to the salute. "Good morning, Sir", "Good Evening, Sir", etc.

In the German Army in WW II, so I am told, it was the opposite way around. The junior saluted first, but did not speak or offer a salutation unless spoken to. The salutation might be "good morning", good day, etc., and the junior could return a similar salutation, but if the officer said "Heil Hitler" or "Heil Unteroffizier", the junior was required to respond with "Heil ______".

In WW I, it seems to me that the German junior would have been required to speak to the officer (if spoken to) in the third person. "Herr Leutnant is correct" rather than "You are correct, Herr Leutnant."

[Schugger]

Just out of interest, is there something in the US or British army like "Grussabnahme", roughly described as a strange ordeal where you have to prove that you can salute properly before you were allowed to, well, salute?

I have some not so fond memories of this

In the German Army in WW II, so I am told, it was the opposite way around. The junior saluted first, but did not speak or offer a salutation unless spoken to. The salutation might be "good morning", good day, etc., and the junior could return a similar salutation, but if the officer said "Heil Hitler" or "Heil Unteroffizier", the junior was required to respond with "Heil ______".

As far as I know, the words "Heil Hitler!" were not used with the military salute (hand to the temple), but only with the so called "Hitlergruss".

[M1A1TC]

Originally posted by Florian Gross:

I don't get it!

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Treeburst155:

I once saluted a Command Sargeant Major. Boy, did he read me the riot act! I was BSing with my buddies, not paying attention, when the battalion CSM walked by dripping with polished brass and medals in his dress greens. His sudden appearance startled me, and I didn't see the stripes, just the medals and brass. I figured it was a field grade officer, and snapped him my best salute. That following Sunday I found myself mopping floors in battalion headquarters.

BTW, he would salute 2nd Lieutenants; but not even Captains tried to tell him what to do. He answered to the Battalion commander only.

Does this mean you were below his rank. If you were below you should salute, shouldn't you?

I know that 2nd Lieutenants are above as captains are. Do you mean he was an NCO with much experience and respect? Why shouldn't you salute him anyway? </font>

[M1A1TC]

And the leutenant rank is below captains by the way

[gunnergoz]

Just to mix it up a bit...is it not true that a recipient of the Congressional Medal of Honor is entitled to be saluted first by all, of any rank whatever? Or so I've heard.

[Treeburst155]

There is no such thing as the Congressional Medal of Honor. It is just the "Medal Of Honor"; and yes, I believe even privates who are wearing the MOH are saluted by officers. I think thier offspring even get a free shot at West Point. However, most MOH recipients never make it off the battlefield alive. Lots of them jumped on grenades, or held off enemy hordes with MGs so their buddies could escape. There's a few great sites on MOH recipients. I'm too lazy to look them up again though.

[Stalin's Organ]

Originally posted by Wisbech_lad:

Old and hoary quote.

Senior NCO to officer cadets, or junior officers.

"I will address you as sir and you will address me as sir. The difference is - you will mean it"

Very hoary - in the British tradition Warrant officers are "mister", and no self-respecting NCO would stoop so low as to require anyone to call him "sir" - NCO's work for a living after all!!

Warrant Officers hold warrants from a minister of het Govt (Secretary of Defence in the US, Minister of Defence in hte Commonwealth), whereas Commissioned officers hold their commission from the head of state (Crown, President, etc.) - hence the difference in authority they wield.

I remember a very senior WO1 RSM completley politely and deferentially obeying a particularly pointless order from a Lieutenant (shutting down the "wet" canteen on the last night of camp IIRC) - then having a word in the Bn CO's ear, and the Lt being hauled over the coals and posted somewhere unpleasant - there is no doubt that a 2nd Lt straight out of his officers course outranks a warrant officer - but choosing to exercise that rank would normally be a career limiting move!!

Mike

fmr lcpl

[flamingknives]

Reminds me of a story my grandfather told me.

He was a Colour sergeant and a firearms instructor, and was teaching a course of officers to shoot revolvers.

One of the officers had a problem with his gun (misfire or something) and turned round saying;

"Sergeant, there's something wrong with my gun"

Rather stupidly, the gun came round too.

Not liking having a loaded gun pointed at him, my grandfather slapped the gun, and the officer's hand, back down range.

As a result, the officer tried to have him brought up on a charge of striking an officer.

What actually happened was that the officer was told not to be such a BF and my granfather was told to exercise more caution when dealing with new officers.