Florian Gross Posted January 30, 2004 Share Posted January 30, 2004 Dear Major Grog, I have been playing this game now for quite some time. I have read a lot about WWII and I have watched BoB. But I still don't quite understand what non-committed officers are. I'm german and I know what to commit means. I think non-committed officers are not put into direct combat as not to risk them becoming casualties. But what strikes me, if I understood it correctly, is that every platoon has several NCO's and CO's, although the only non-committed officer should be the platoon leader, delegating dangerous tasks to his inferiors. I would be greatly obliged to you for any clarification on the topic. Yours sincerely Private Gross (being aware of the stupid meaning of gross in English but means big or great in German) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GJK Posted January 30, 2004 Share Posted January 30, 2004 It's "Non-commissioned", not committed (though that could be questioned sometimes I guess ) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CC Baxter Posted January 30, 2004 Share Posted January 30, 2004 NCO=Non Commissioned Officer. This is a soldier below the rank of 2nd Lieutenant eg Warrant Officer (in the British Army), Sergeant, Corporal, or Lance-Corporal. A commissioned officer can potentially be promoted to the highest possible rank eg General or Field Marshal. A NCO can only attain a rank which would still be below that of a 2nd Lieutenant, which in other words would still be off lesser rank than the lowest commissioned officer. Hope this helps. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonC Posted January 30, 2004 Share Posted January 30, 2004 NCO is non -commissioned- officer. Not non -committed- officer. It is a matter of rank and legal position, not a tactical distinction about who goes where. Commission means - a formal written warrant granting the power to perform various acts or duties, or a certificate conferring military rank and authority, or the rank and authority so conferred. It means someone is legally acting for another as his agent. A full officer, a commissioned officer, originally held the commission of a king. Whereas a non-commissioned officer was any subordinate military leader who did not directly hold "the king's commission". In feudal times this distinction was basically synonymous with knighthood - whereas "NCOs" were "sergeants", men at arms in the livery of their own lord. In early modern times in Europe, it still basically divided nobility from commoners. Military traditions have kept these distinctions long after the wider societies gave them up. In Anglo-American military traditions, the officer-NCO division extends beyond the question of the unit size commanded. There are senior NCOs for units of all sizes, in charge of the specific needs of the enlisted men. Compared to the sometimes junior officers serving alongside them, higher NCOs typically have much longer practical experience, but frequently less formal education. In German military traditions you'd say "feldwebel" (of various kinds). 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted January 30, 2004 Share Posted January 30, 2004 English is a very complex language with many snares and pitfalls. As witness the posts on this forum, even people who have spoken it all their lives get constantly tripped up by it. Therefore, mein freund, do not be excessively embarrassed by what is to follow. 'NCO' does not stand for 'non-committed officer'. It stands for 'non-commissioned officer'. That is, a petty officer who does not hold either a commission or a warrant. An example in the German army would have been an Obergefreiter or Feldwebel (I think; there are several grogs who may correct me on this). In the Commonwealth or American armies, it might be a corporal or sergeant. Now, 'CO' stands for 'commanding officer' and not surprisingly he is the officer in command of the unit. There is only one commander per unit, though if the unit is large enough he may have several or even many officers on his staff in addition to other officers commanding subordinate units, etc. In the American army, a platoon was normally commanded by a 2nd. lieutenant assisted by a sergeant and a couple of enlisted men. The squads that made up the platoon were commanded by sergeants. The company, which was comprised of three rifle platoons and a heavy weapons platoon, was commanded by a captain assisted by a 1st. lieutenant who was the executive officer (XO), one or two sergeants and some enlisted men. And so it goes. HTH Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonC Posted January 30, 2004 Share Posted January 30, 2004 CC Baxter - technically correct, but tell a Command Sergeant Major he is subordinate to a 2nd Lieutenant straight out of OCS and you'll get a belly laugh. The NCO structure does not stop at the level of the platoon. It parallels the officer structure. At each level, the NCOs work for their officer counterparts. But working for the superiors of lower level officers is not the same as being subordinate to those lower level officers, in practice. Otherwise put, captains do order First Sergeants around, but everybody else in a company does what they say. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted January 30, 2004 Share Posted January 30, 2004 And a wise CO might, privately at least, consult with his NCO before issuing an order in some cases. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Florian Gross Posted January 30, 2004 Author Share Posted January 30, 2004 Ah excellent replies thx as i have expected. So that means to become a comissioned officer you'd have to have gone to some college like West Point to be able to start as a lieutenant and rise in military hierarchy, whereas enlisted men who have done some great deed could only be promoted to master sergeant or Oberfeldwebel. OK I was just wondering if Richard Winters had a commission and was about to contradict you, but I looked it up in BoB and he was at the start of the American involvement into the war a "newly commissioned graduate of OCS, [...] 2nd Lts. Dick Winters from Pennsylvania. Thx for the clarification. Something to impress my CM mate with. We have been arguing about this for ages! [ January 29, 2004, 08:36 PM: Message edited by: Florian Gross ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Florian Gross Posted January 30, 2004 Author Share Posted January 30, 2004 As we are already involved in this topic: What does S1, S2, S3 mean? Are they staff sergeants for the CO? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted January 30, 2004 Share Posted January 30, 2004 Originally posted by CC Baxter: NCO=Non Commissioned Officer. This is a soldier below the rank of 2nd Lieutenant eg Warrant Officer (in the British Army), Sergeant, Corporal, or Lance-Corporal. A commissioned officer can potentially be promoted to the highest possible rank eg General or Field Marshal. A NCO can only attain a rank which would still be below that of a 2nd Lieutenant, which in other words would still be off lesser rank than the lowest commissioned officer. Hope this helps. A Warrant Officer is a non-commissioned officer also. He does not hold the Queen's (or King's, in WW II) Commission. There is a list of the NCO ranks at my website at http://members.shaw.ca/madorosh for all the armies in CMAK (except the French) - click on the link saying TABLE OF RANK AND RESPONSIBILITY. In terms of actual power (and usually in terms of pay), senior warrant officers and NCOs in all armies are usually superior to 2nd Lieutenants, as they are the most junior of officers while senior NCOs have been around for a long time, command more respect, and in are repsonsible for more administration than the average 2LT (who is still given command authorities greater than NCOs). 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Florian Gross Posted January 30, 2004 Author Share Posted January 30, 2004 This is much more fun than studying English at University. NOT GOOD. Might even eventually become a grog 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted January 30, 2004 Share Posted January 30, 2004 Originally posted by Florian Gross: As we are already involved in this topic: What does S1, S2, S3 mean? Are they staff sergeants for the CO? They are the different staff appointments; G-1, G-2 etc. are at divisional level or higher, S-1, S-2 etc. is regimental or lower. G-1 Personnel G-2 Intelligence G-3 Operations G-4 Supply/Logistics Since WW II, a couple have been added. These abbreviations were used in the US Army only, the other armies had their own systems. EDITED cause Famine says so [ January 29, 2004, 08:41 PM: Message edited by: Michael Dorosh ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted January 30, 2004 Share Posted January 30, 2004 Originally posted by Florian Gross: Ah excellent replies thx as i have expected. So that means to become a comissioned officer you'd have to have gone to some college like West Point to be able to start as a leutenant and rise in military hierarchy, whereas enlisted men who have done some great deed could only be promoted to master sergeant or Oberfeldwebel.Generally, but not strictly true. As you mentioned in your second paragraph which I snipped, many wartime officers had been to OCS (Officer Candidate School), this was a nine(?) month course given within the Army for promising enlistees. Usually to qualify, a man should have had at least two years of regular college education, though not necessarily in a military academy. Also, at the start of the war, while the Army was vastly expanding in size, many NCOs were given commissions to fill out the slots available. And sometimes NCOs were given field commissions when they showed exemplary leadership qualities and there was a need for more officers than were arriving through the normal channels. Officers who were promoted up through the enlisted ranks were traditionally, though informally, known as "Mustangs". Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted January 30, 2004 Share Posted January 30, 2004 Originally posted by Michael Dorosh: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Florian Gross: As we are already involved in this topic: What does S1, S2, S3 mean? Are they staff sergeants for the CO? They are the different staff appointments; G-1, G-2 etc. are at regimental (brigade) level or lower, S-1, S-2 etc. is divisional or higher.</font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wisbech_lad Posted January 30, 2004 Share Posted January 30, 2004 Old and hoary quote. Senior NCO to officer cadets, or junior officers. "I will address you as sir and you will address me as sir. The difference is - you will mean it" 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Florian Gross Posted January 30, 2004 Author Share Posted January 30, 2004 So a commission can be compared to an initiation into knighthood, as JasonC refered to the medieval traditions in the U.S. Army. I can hardly believe that these traditions are so long lived, especially as there never was knighthood in the U.S. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted January 30, 2004 Share Posted January 30, 2004 Originally posted by JasonC: In German military traditions you'd say "feldwebel" (of various kinds). Not really. German NCOs were either "Unteroffiziere mit Portepee" or "Unteroffiziere ohne Portepee". The Portepee was a ceremonial knot/tassel worn on the sidearm (a bayonet or sabre depending on order of dress). Unteroffiziere mit Portepee were senior NCOs, including, from 1939-45, the ranks of Feldwebel Oberfeldwebel Stabsfeldwebel Unteroffiziere ohne Portepee included Unteroffizier (not only the name of the class of soldiers, but also a specific rank title in this instance) Unterfeldwebel In English, Unteroffizier translates directly as "Under Officer", which is appropriate enough. There was also the appointment of Hauptfeldwebel in the German Army, while the British had appointments also. Rank was a level of status or military grade, while an appointment was the job you were doing. Thus a Warrant Officer II Class in the British Army could also be referred to by his appointment title, Company Sergeant Major or Regimental Quarter Master Sergeant, depending on the slot he was filling. Confused yet? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GJK Posted January 30, 2004 Share Posted January 30, 2004 Originally posted by Michael Emrys: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Michael Dorosh: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Florian Gross: As we are already involved in this topic: What does S1, S2, S3 mean? Are they staff sergeants for the CO? They are the different staff appointments; G-1, G-2 etc. are at regimental (brigade) level or lower, S-1, S-2 etc. is divisional or higher.</font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted January 30, 2004 Share Posted January 30, 2004 Originally posted by Michael Emrys: An example in the German army would have been an Obergefreiter or Feldwebel (I think; there are several grogs who may correct me on this). If you insist. Soldiers ranked as Oberschütze, Gefreiter, Obergefreiter or Stabsgefreiter in the German Army were NOT, say again NOT considered non-commissioned officers in any sense of the word. They were considered privates receiving a higher rate of pay. They had no command powers or authority as one found in a British Corporal or an American Corporal. Most sources translate these German ranks as "lance corporal", "junior corporal" etc. without giving any thought to what the soldiers actually did. A British Corporal led a section of 10 men. In the German Army, that was the job of an Unteroffizier, not a lowly Obergefreiter. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted January 30, 2004 Share Posted January 30, 2004 Originally posted by Florian Gross: So a commission can be compared to an initiation into knighthood, as JasonC refered to the medieval traditions in the U.S. Army. I can hardly believe that these traditions are so long lived, especially as there never was knighthood in the U.S. The US Army gets most of its traditions from the British Army, believe it or not, from which it was created in the 1700s. The British got their traditions directly from God. Ask any member of the Royal Scots (Pontius Pilate's Bodyguard) if I'm wrong. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Florian Gross Posted January 30, 2004 Author Share Posted January 30, 2004 Would you please answer my questions! I started the topic! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Florian Gross Posted January 30, 2004 Author Share Posted January 30, 2004 Oh you did, äh Entschuldigung 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted January 30, 2004 Share Posted January 30, 2004 Originally posted by Michael Dorosh: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Michael Emrys: An example in the German army would have been an Obergefreiter or Feldwebel (I think; there are several grogs who may correct me on this). If you insist. Soldiers ranked as Oberschütze, Gefreiter, Obergefreiter or Stabsgefreiter in the German Army were NOT, say again NOT considered non-commissioned officers in any sense of the word. They were considered privates receiving a higher rate of pay. They had no command powers or authority as one found in a British Corporal or an American Corporal. Most sources translate these German ranks as "lance corporal", "junior corporal" etc. without giving any thought to what the soldiers actually did. A British Corporal led a section of 10 men. In the German Army, that was the job of an Unteroffizier, not a lowly Obergefreiter. </font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Florian Gross Posted January 30, 2004 Author Share Posted January 30, 2004 Thx guys! Very exact clarification on my topic! I wonder what JasonC is doing. Are you a history professor? You're profile says research analyst. Can't really put that into context. Is this war thing just a hobby of yours? It is incredibly sophisticated, I am thouroughly impressed. You surely improved my tactical CM abilities a great deal! Thx to the other forumists as well, I've learned a lot! I will be back with more stupid questions which I'm kinda too lazy to research for myself. It's much more fun in here thx 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Florian Gross Posted January 30, 2004 Author Share Posted January 30, 2004 One more just to become a member. (Again impressing my CM mate) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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